ZeldaBlog

In Communist Hylia, Song of Storms Plays You [updated]

January 20th, 2007 at 4:45 pm by The Missing Link

[UPDATE: Fixed some bad HTML markup in the Future Elimination Theory section.]

Before you begin this article, I do want to forewarn you all. This article gets kinda deep into the Zelda timeline, so if you get an allergic reaction to that stuff, you might not want to read this. (On the other hand, this isn’t me ramming a theory down your throat; I treat you all better than that!) Secondly, this article was written primarily with the audience of Zelda Legends in mind since it will also appear on their site in the near future, so read at your own discretion.

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It’s no small secret; Ocarina of Time is, as of the writing of this article, the biggest thing to have ever hit the Zelda community. In fact, that game alone quite nearly created the Zelda community. (Well, okay, it had the Internet’s help on that one. And Miyamoto I’m sure helped. But those things aside, Ocarina is a definite winner!) Fans flocked to newly created forums and websites to discuss the game, to share information and their reflections. Fans began creating silly games and massive roleplay channels. Fans joined shipping groups and debated one another. And, certainly not least of all, fans, all because of Ocarina of Time, started debating the Zelda timeline. Almost a decade and eight Zelda titles later, that last group is still searching for the answers to questions that have grown exponentially since Ocarina has its debut.

Since Ocarina, self-proclaimed timeline enthusiasts have tended to investigate the timeline from a macroscopic level. Most scatter the thirteen Zeldas haphazardly upon the floor and start looking any possible chain of events that could possibly link them all together given the restrictions of canon. In short, most Zelda theorists (myself included) are to the Zelda timeline as Dimitri Mendeleev was to the periodic table, analysing patterns, trying to infer some logical organisation with an incomplete set of known facts. Timelines have been constructed by looking at the big picture: following the journey of the Triforce through its split and eventual reunification, proceeding each death of Ganondorf with an eventual resurrection of evil, and trying to align each game’s backstory with the plot of some other title. Timeline construction was a search for truth and answers, a noble quest amongst our own kind.

On the other hand, most serious timeliners seem to go in the opposite direction when debunking timelines. Disproofs seem to take a more microscopic view. Many timeliners believe that every single line of dialogue, every single occurrence that happens in the Zelda games is an unquestionable truth, and any timeline that dares violate but a single factoid ends up in the garbage bin, unwanted and rejected. Timeliners, at least years ago if still not today, were ruthless in the criticism of proposals that argued against their own ideas, and there seemed to be no end to the rebuttals that could be presented to every timeline, no matter what the timeline looked like. (Talk about equal-opportunity employment!)

This latter approach is what we’re going to use today; yes, this article is about debunking timelines. However, it’s not just about debunking a timeline; better yet (well, likely worse yet for you), if you believe that every line of dialogue is unquestionable truth, if you believe that canon can never be questioned, this article is about debunking your timeline. No matter what you believe, no matter how well you have your timeline constructed, if you believe in that thing we call canon, your theory is gone as of today. This is the universal disproof of timelines as we know them. And in case you’re wondering just how that’s even possible, how I can axe your belief even when I don’t know what it is, even when I don’t even know the ordering in which you’ve placed the games, let me provide you the answer without hesitation. This disproof doesn’t depend upon any game ordering. It relies solely upon a singel game, the one game to destroy them all: Ocarina of Time. It is my intent to show that Ocarina of Time is self-contradictory, that Ocarina itself prevents any timeline from existing.

It’s almost ironic that the game that started the whole timeline debate should have also been the game that should have ended it as well. (Some people might call this sentence foreshadowing. You have no idea.)

So how does Ocarina ruin your timeline? Why, it’s all because of one very simple plot device…

The Song of Storms

If you’ve ever thought about the Song of Storms for any length of time, you’ve probably already had several migraines about it. The Song of Storms is easily not the simplest part about Ocarina of Time. In fact, it’s probably one of the least understood aspects about the game mainly because the timeline starts performing acrobatic stunts in midair whenever you think about it. I mean, if you think about it in the right way (or the wrong way, depending upon your perspective), Link uses the Song of Storms before he actually learns the tune. It’s pretty easy to explain that away with the whole time travel thing… until you start thinking about it. It doesn’t take very long to realise that, not only did the Guru-Guru Man teach Linkthe Song of Storms, but Link taught him the song as well! Moreover, you find out that Link taught him the song before Link actually went back to cause him to know the song to teach Link… and so couldn’t Link go back in time and not teach him the song… thus messing up the future? And then what, Link doesn’t know the song, so he can’t not think about not teaching him… and AUGH! It only takes a few moments of consideration before your mind starts leaping ever closer to insanity, which is the point when everyone hurls the whole notion into a corner of their closet and locks the door.

Yet really, the concept truly is simple; the only reason it gets complex is because your mind starts playing tricks on you. The concept is best explained by the movie Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure, and anyone who has ever seen the movie will know exactly what I’m talking about. Towards the end of the movie (sorry to spoil it for you), Bill and Ted are trying to rescue their historical pals from jail, yet they quickly realise that they don’t have what it takes to do it. For example, they don’t have the jail cell keys… and they run into problems when Bill’s father—a cop down at the precinct—catches them in the act. Yet, still they’re able to make it happen all because of four words: “Remember the trash can!” Suddenly, as if out of nowhere, a trash can appears right where they need it to, beaning Bill’s father on the head so they can make their escape.

How’d the trash can get there? Well, after they go do their history report, they use their time-travelling phone booth to go back in time and place the trash can exactly where they would need it in the future. In short, they went back to fill in the gaps of their escape to ensure that they’d be able to come out as winners. The Song of Storms is precisely that… just with a little more deus ex machina… since, you know, it wasn’t your idea to place the trash can play the Song of Storms for the Guru-Guru Man. Got it? Good.

So what does this have to do with the price of timelines in China? It’s quite simple. Ocarina of Time is the very thing that tends to start any given timeline debate on the Internet because, well, (1) the game typically occurs very early in any timeline, and (2) the game ends by Link going back in time… thus causing everyone to promptly answer the question of what happens—or happened (or wioll haven happen, if you’d rather use the “Future Semiconditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional” verb form found in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy)—to the future in which Ganon conquered Hyrule and eventually received his comeuppance and subsequent Linkwhopin’. And indeed, timeline enthusiasts have been split about what to do with this future for many years. Still to date, no consensus has been reached about how to handle this single issue. However, you can usually break that into three major cases, or perhaps timeline templates are better terms for them. Now while I know that my core audience is intimately familiar with all three of these, considering the rather… complex nature of the Song of Storms, I think it’s worthwhile to understand the core of each theory and show how they deal with time, so we’re going to dig into the core of each one and explain how they work just so there’s no confusion.

And for starters, we’ll start with perhaps the most popular of all the timeline templates.

Debunking The Split Timeline Theory

The Split Timeline Theory, as we all know, comes from the belief that there are two separate and divergent endings of Ocarina of Time, the “adult ending” and the “child ending.” Both endings then diverge and run their own separate paths, independent of one another. The child ending, which fragments from the adult timeline when Link returns from the future, need not follow the future history that the adult timeline follows. But let’s abstract away the specifics events in Zelda and state scientifically what this means.

If I am in a universe where the Split Timeline Theory holds, when I am born into the world, I exist within my original, native timeline; we’ll call that Timeline A. Somewhere along that timeline, some event X happens. It could be that someone gets killed, someone conquers the world, a boy falls in love with a girl, or someone never gets told some crucial piece of information that would change ones life forever. Event X could literally be anything. Then, at some date after X happens, I decide to go back in time and somehow prevent X from happening, thus replacing X with the complement event NOT(X) (which I will denote as ¬X, since ¬ means “not”). The moment I do this, the timeline splits into two separate timelines, one where X happens and one where ¬X happens. The former, of course, is Timeline A; the latter we’ll call Timeline B. At this point, I am now trapped within Timeline B and can never rejoin Timeline A because the future of Timeline A is changed because X failed to happen. Even though I experienced the future of Timeline A and know what will eventually happen in the future of Timeline A, I’m not a part of it anymore because my future will be different. I will never again be able to experience Event X because it never happened in my timeline. The timeline is split into two, and that’s that.

For those of you who have played Chrono Cross, you know exactly what I’m talking about.

Now let’s just see what happens if we try to fit the Song of Storms into the Split Timeline Theory. Link starts in the normal timeline, Timeline A. However, X in this case would be Link never teaching the Guru-Guru Man the song. Before you question that, think about it. Once we “learn” the Song of Storms from the future, Link then comes back in time to teach it to the Guru-Guru Man, thus creating a split in the timeline. This is event ¬X! So X must be the opposite case, that the Guru-Guru Man never knew about the Song of Storms… but he clearly did know about the Song of Storms in the future of the original timeline! That’s a huge contradiction, and so I have to respond with a loud OBJECTION! The Guru-Guru Man is living proof that the Split Timeline Theory is bunk.

Yes, I know, I know… you’ve already started typing your rebuttals. I know. I’ll get to some of your concerns later. But we’ve got two more timeline templates to explore first. So let’s move on.

Two Different Single Timeline Theories

So if we then presume that the Split Timeline Theory is properly debunked, that leaves us with the only alternative. If we can’t have multiple timelines, we must have one, leaving us with the Single Timeline Theory, and that’s the next thing on the docket to debunk. However, the Single Timeline Theory is… a teensy bit more broad than the Split Timeline Theory. There’s more room for play when it comes to how we deal with the future. After all, if we’re going to allow time travel within a single timeline, we’ve got to do something with that inconvenient future history… but given that we don’t know what would happen to our own real-world timeline in such a case, our imaginations become free to come up with our own explanations. As far as I can tell from perusing through the popular Zelda timelines in this vein, there are two primary ideas on how to deal with that, thus creating two different Single Timeline Theory templates.

When it comes to the future, we can treat it one of two ways. When the past is changed, we can either erase the future and overwrite it… or we can not, thus leaving it locked as is. As far as I know, these two different variants of the Single Timeline Theory aren’t named, and so I’m going to go out on a limb here and coin names for these guys. The timeline in which we overwrite and erase whatever happens in the future when we change the past will be called the Future Elimination Theory, whereas the theory in which the future is locked in stone and must occur as we saw it the first time will be the Future Predestination Theory. We’ll start with the first of those.

Debunking the Future Elimination Theory

The Future Elimination Theory, as I just said, takes the future and immediately nullifies it the moment something in the past happens to cancel it out, thereby changing the destiny the future is going to take and completely rewriting history. Whereas Chrono Cross takes on the characterisation of the Split Timeline Theory, this theory is personified by the game Chrono Trigger (still one of the best RPGs to ever grace the world with its very presence!). So if you’ve played the game, the explanation will likely be complete overkill, but it’s worth explaining anyway just to make sure we’re on the same page.

(As an aside, the Future Elimination Theory is susceptible to the infamous grandfather paradox, in which Link would still exist if he went back in time and killed his parents before he was conceived—provided he knew exactly who they were!—even though he would have never been born, but that’s more of a moot point here than anything else.)

So we’ve only got one timeline this time around, but we’ve still got two different futures. So I get born into our one little timeline and trot along quite happily through time, waving at all the people and watching the events as they go by. Then that dreaded event X happens again, an event so bad that I wish upon whatever I can wish upon that I could change it. This future—what happens after Event X—we will call Future A. But since Future A is so horrible, we don’t want that to happen; we want to change the past. So I hop into my trusty time machine and go back in time to before X, and just like last time, I prevent X from ever happening by substituting it with ¬X. The moment this happens, Future A cannot possibly happen because it depended upon X to exist! So thus, the future will change dramatically and turn out very differently, thus resulting in a Future B, completely different from the first. Future A is dead and gone, erased and eliminated, and truly it only still exists in the mind of the time traveller as the future that never was. No one except those who travelled through time will have any recollection of Future A.

Now traditionally, this theory is used to explain the ending of Ocarina, that when Zelda shifted Link back to his own time, somehow that prevented Ganondorf from conquering the world. Perhaps she sent him back in time before Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm or, more popularly, sent Link back to the point just after Ganondorf entered the Sacred—now Evil—Realm, thereby sealing him within it forever. Either way, Ganondorf wouldn’t have conquered Hyrule, and thus the entire adult portion of the game poofs into thin air like magic. (Well, it was the Ocarina’s magic that did the deed, so I guess it really is magic!)

But if we apply this to the Song of Storms, we’re going to run into the same problems again. As last time, Event ¬X is that Link went back to teach the Guru-Guru Man the Song of Storms, thereby changing the future so that he could get into the well beneath the windmill. However, this means that Event X is, once again, the Guru-Guru Man not knowing anything about the Song of Storms. Thus, the Guru-Guru Man only knows about the song in Future B, not Future A! But the Guru-Guru Man taught Link the Song of Storms himself before Link ever went back to change history, and thus, the Guru-Guru Man shouldn’t know the song in Future A! OBJECTION! Again, we’ve reached another contradiction here since the canon says that the Guru-Guru Man knew about the Song of Storms in both futures.

So the Future Elimination Theory is out as well. Again, I’ll take care of your arguments later on, but for now, let’s take care of the last timeline template…

Debunking the Future Predestination Theory

And at last, the last of the theories! We’re down to the Future Predestination Theory. This theory tends to be the least popular of the three major templates I mentioned because it has some quirks and nagging questions that seem to always be left unanswered by it, as we will soon find out. However, to be quick about the theory before getting into the meat of it, this theory states that the future is immutable and cannot be changed. Ever. This means you, Link. So when Zelda sends Link back in time after defeating Ganondorf, Zelda letting Link live his life as a child means exactly that; she reverts him to being a ten year old and he will live the childhood he never lived… but he will have to live through the same seven years that the rest of Hyrule lived through. No matter what Link does as a child, he cannot personally go after Ganondorf and kill him because the future has predetermined that Ganondorf will be killed only the Link that went through time seven years after Link was thrown back through time at the end of Ocarina. Thus, instead of two timelines or two futures, this timeline is restricted to having only one of each. However, this timeline makes it all happen because, during the adult Link segment of Ocarina, there are technically two Links, both the same (apparent) age, but one of the two never went through that whole puberty thing. What Link (the Link that didn’t skip over the seven-year period) did during those seven years and (more importantly) during the adult Link part of Ocarina, no one truly knows, but many people place Majora’s Mask in that stretch, but let’s not talk Majora. We’re talking Ocarina. So let’s dig in.

The Future Predestination Theory is perhaps the most difficult to explain since there’s no simple way to view the single timeline, even from the time traveller’s perspective. What is important to note is that if Event X physically happens at some point in time, whether or not it will happen or has already happened, it is impossible to alter the course of time and replace X with its complement ¬X. X must happen no matter what. Thus, if we learn in the future that we are responsible for some event X that happened in the past, even if we haven’t actually done X already, even if we must go back in time to actually cause Event X to happen, it is predetermined that we must accomplish that! We are obligated go correct our oversight and make it happen because the future has predetermined that we must do so; we have no choice in that. Be that as it may, however, it is perfectly legal that we can reap the rewards of Event X’s occurrence without actually having personally caused it yet… even if those rewards are used to cause X itself!

The Song of Storms actually does work with this theory actually. Link goes into the future and learns the Song of Storms from the person to whom he taught it. This happened in the game and is canon. But then Link implicitly is bound by the time traveller’s obligation to correct his as-of-yet oversight of not teaching the song to the Guru-Guru Man since this is a required occurrence to ensure that the timeline is self-consistent. Of course, Nintendo guarantees that we do so since it’s required to beat the game (at least, unless you cheat). So Link has to go back and teach the Song of Storms to the Guru-Guru Man, and he indeed does so. It works! Ocarina of Time proves that this is the way the timeline must be, right? Well, not exactly…

Now let’s fast forward (and rewind) to the end of the game. Zelda sends Link back in time via the Ocarina of Time back to when he was ten years old, but now we have to determine exactly to when Link was sent back. Before you answer the question when your own answer, remember that there’s a hard limit on this. You see, history cannot be changed whatsoever. That’s the rule, and we’re not allowed to violate it. Now remember that the Door of Time was not opened prior to Link retrieving the three Spiritual Stones and the Ocarina. So the absolute earliest point in time to which Link could return is the exact moment that Link opened the Door of Time. (Otherwise, Link would be stuck in the Temple of Time forever and likely asphyxiate there. What an embarrassing way to die!) Technically, we also have to allow for some additional time after that because Link needed to come back for long enough to beat both the Well mini-dungeon and the child half of the Spirit Temple, not to mention that Ganondorf had to have had enough time to escape the Sacred Realm with the Triforce of Power since, you know, he still has to take over the world and such. (Immutable history is such a pain, but them’s the breaks.)

But if you’ll remember the very ending of Ocarina, Link comes back to Hyrule Castle to meet Zelda, this time with the Triforce on his hand. But wait, before we even started the adult portion of the quest, Zelda and Impa high-tailed it out of Castle Town so they wouldn’t get caught by Ganondorf! She shouldn’t be back in Hyrule Castle because Ganondorf is on the loose! OBJECTION! And already, I know what you’re thinking… maybe there was a temporary time of peace before Ganondorf conquered the world, thus allowing Zelda to come back for long enough to make the scene possible. (After all, Ganondorf didn’t conquer the world until some time after the child half of the Spirit Temple.) Even though you won’t find Zelda at the window during that span of time, well… fine. If you’re going to be picky, I’ll gladly retract the question, but then I’ll counter that with another. Where’s the Ocarina of Time after Link opens the Door of Time and heads to the future? Why, you might remember that Link left that in the future in Zelda’s hands! He didn’t bring it back like he had always done with his other trips to the child portion of Ocarina. So how did Link get it for Majora’s Mask before heading out? OBJECTION! The answer is he couldn’t have. Now while I did say I didn’t need another Zelda game to prove this to you, really Majora’s Mask is merely further evidence of the fact. The first contradiction, which is hard canon by the way, should have been enough to convince all of those types who follow canon wherever it goes. As a direct result, this timeline template is out as well because the Song of Storms is, as always, incompatible with the ending of the game.

Answers to Likely Rebuttal Points

So, now that I’ve skewered everything you can possibly do with Ocarina of Time, I know that a few of you are already itching to head over to the forums or the comments section or whatever and denounce me for whatever reason, but let me answer some of the questions that you’ve likely been pondering through the course of reading this article.

  1. Ah ha! You can’t beat me! Whoever said the Ocarina of Time changed time precisely like the Master Sword? Huh, TML? — Ah yes, you’ve fallen into my trap, little fly! Let’s look at the parallels here between the two. The Master Sword is found in the Temple of Time (which plays the music of the Song of Time) beyond the Door of Time, which requires the Ocarina of Time to open. The Ocarina of Time plays the Song of Time (and indeed does stuff when it is played) and is required to open the Door of Time in the Temple of Time. Both are artefacts that the Royal Family took great care in protecting. Both the Master Sword and the Ocarina of Time have mysterious powers, nearly divine powers even, and can do many impossible things; they are, perhaps, equipotential in their abilities, neither one able to truly defeat the other. There are so many parallels between the two, so many connections between the two, so many similar references to time itself that to say that they have different abilities would likely be less canon than saying they had to function the same.
  2. Couldn’t it have been that Nintendo just screwed up somewhere? — I’m not dismissing that possibility at all, actually. In fact, my money would be on it. The Song of Storms is a very unique plot point, but it also could have been nothing more than a clever plot device one of the developers thought up one day. I highly doubt they analysed the entire game for every possible error in “timeline” (since it barely existed back when Ocarina of Time came out) and just thought that the two complimented one another, leaving it at that. However, using that as a front for why my theory wouldn’t work sort of defeats the purpose of canon.
  3. Shouldn’t Aonuma’s or Miyamoto’s opinions trump something as trivial as this? — All discussion of whether or not their words are even canon to begin with aside, no, they shouldn’t. The highest level of canon, everyone agrees, is the game text and events. By a very strict interpretation of canon, which is what this article uses to disprove the very existence of a timeline, the details of the games supersede everything else (with perhaps the exception of future Zelda titles, but this article doesn’t even touch those, so I’m safe).
  4. Shouldn’t the end of the game—which is much more important to the game—trump a trivial detail as this? — Again, this depends upon your notion of canon. If every detail is sacred, then no. However, if you allow yourself certain discretions for violating a strict canon policy, some artistic license if you will, then yes, fitting a theory to the end of the game is much more within the spirit of the game than fitting to your theory to the Song of Storms and nothing else.
  5. So are you saying that there IS no Zelda timeline? — That question cannot be answered by a simple yes or no because I made a single assumption when writing this article, that every single detail of canon is considered unquestionably true. If you believe every word, every event, every picture found within the Zelda games is pure, hard canon and happened exactly as they are presented, if you put canon before timeline, then no, a timeline cannot exist. However, if your goal is to construct a timeline and don’t care if it fits every detail of the canon or not, if you place timeline before canon, then of course, you can have one.
  6. What about TToTT (The Triforce of Time Theory)? — I don’t have the heart to put that theory to death. I’ll let it slide my wrath. :DSo I decree by fiat that it’s compatible with the Song of Storms.

Conclusion

Now before I close, I do want to mention that I’m not anti-timeline. In the truest sense of the term, I am a timeline enthusiast, and I enjoy discussing the role of timeline and the ordering of the Zelda games, challenging theories to show their weaknesses in hopes that they can be made better. After all, I have a half-completed fan-novel about the Zelda timeline and history of Hyrule, and I’m not about to delete that gem from the Internet.

However, I am very strongly anti-canon. Ever since I started writing The Book of Mudora, I have been seduced by the sheer freedom in the artistic license granted by writing my timeline in fanfiction form. Unlike simple timeline outlines, a fanfiction version of the timeline is much more difficult to create because any paradox or overt contradiction will not only break the timeline but also the reader’s suspension of disbelief, ruining the story and wasting their time. Since the Zelda timeline has so many paradoxes as it stands, sweeping those inconvenient “truths” away and thus ignoring or changing small details that don’t work conveniently allows the overall story to be much stronger and more solid. Even if it doesn’t hold true to the letter of the law, it still nevertheless follows the overall spirit of the timeline, and I think that’s a win-win situation, especially in the light of this article, when a single point such as the Song of Storms can be driven into the ground and destroy everything in its wake. After all, it doesn’t take the moon hovering over Termina to defeat a timeline; merely one unexplainable notion is sufficient.

The conclusion I wish to present is as follows: You can have timeline, or you can have canon, but not both. If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. A quick song of A, down-C, up-C, A, down-C, up-C is proof enough of that. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed. Personally, I believe the latter subscribes more to the spirit of the Legend of Zelda, and I shall choose that path every time.

Filed under Timeline, Editorials, Ocarina of Time

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84 Messages from the Gossip Stones about “In Communist Hylia, Song of Storms Plays You [updated]”

    Comments

    0_o

    My freaking brain HURTS now.

    This is why Einstein said that, though theoretically possible, time travel is practically impossible. There are so many paradoxes and contradictions of reality that it really wouldn’t be plausible.
    Of course, when I think of time travel I think of it as like walking forward to the past. You know like step through the portal kinda thing. But what if it actually rewinds, which is kinda like future elimination but kinda not. The only problem is, if that happened, no one would have memory of the future, (you can’t remember what hasn’t happened yet, unless you have alzheimer’s)so thing would occur exactly the same, because o one would know to do things differently.

    HUH????? What…..
    Owwwww
    Owww
    Two Links?
    The Windmill man KNEW??
    NOOOOOOO Thats impossible!!!
    No
    No
    Things just have to work in ways we cant understand

    I wrote something about this nearly four years ago, only I used the time travel physics from “Back to the Future” instead of Bill & Ted. http://progressiveboink.com/archive/alinktothefuture.html

    I totally didn’t even think about the Song of Storms part. How careless of me … but then, I was four years younger with terrible hippy hair :P

    I never believed in a split timeline theory. I always believed that Link left Hyrule (ending up in Termina) because he knew nothing could be done about Ganondorf without the Master Sword, and Link couldn’t use the Master Sword until he was seven years older … hence falling asleep in the first place. So he left so that he couldn’t screw up the flow of time in the middle. No split timelines.

    Using Bill & Ted probably would’ve worked better, especially considering the Song of Storms. Nice work.

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    That is all I can say to that.

    But I see what you’re getting at TML. And I never really would have thought that an Ocarina song would screw up every popular timeline in existance (other than TToTT ;) ). But I can guarantee every single timeline obsessionist in the entire community are going to go f’ing crazy over this. All these new theories are going to pop up all over the place, and people are going to make stuff up like, “Oh, but what if the Song of Storms isn’t canon?” and it’s going to be f’ing crazy. Just watch the Zelda jihad explode into action my friends.

    Darth Citrus said:

    0_o

    My freaking brain HURTS now.

    AMEN!

    Hey, my head didn’t asplode. Yay! That Deku Nut diet is good ^_^ Anyways, there is, one possibility to beat all that you said, TML. Even Einstein’s theory is beat by this. It’s breaking out of our dimension and going through the Time-Space Continuum. But to complete such a feat, one needs the powers of an upper god to do something similar. Upper gods as in the strongest kind of gods, like the Christain God, the Greek Zues, the Roman Saturn, the Egyptian Osiris, Hyrule’s Golden Goddesses, etc. which is an impossible feat, whether your religous, or believe we evolved from sea-monkeys. Oh snap… *head explodes* I need chocolate.

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Hey, my head didn’t asplode. Yay! That Deku Nut diet is good ^_^ Anyways, there is, one possibility to beat all that you said, TML. Even Einstein’s theory is beat by this. It’s breaking out of our dimension and going through the Time-Space Continuum. But to complete such a feat, one needs the powers of an upper god to do something similar. Upper gods as in the strongest kind of gods, like the Christain God, the Greek Zues, the Roman Saturn, the Egyptian Osiris, Hyrule’s Golden Goddesses, etc. which is an impossible feat, whether your religous, or believe we evolved from sea-monkeys. Oh snap… *head explodes* I need chocolate.

    It’s the Roman Jupiter. Jupiter is the same as Zeus but with a Roman name. Also, breaching the TSC and such stuff is what time travel IS. If you don’t breach it or somehow mess with it time flows and functions normally, when its breached or warped it changes time flow, most usually resulting in time travel. And don’t say parallel universe, that’s the same as a split timeline, one universe/timeline goes one way(X), the other goes the opposite(¬X), or takes a slight deviation (XX, x, xX, etc.).

    While I applaud you for the theory, I want to just throw this out:

    Link learns the Song of Storms in Majora’s Mask from one of the Composer Brothers. Therefor is it not plausible that Link would then teach Guru-Guru the song in that way?

    I highly doubt the writers were thinking that far ahead.

    I have rebuttal to the rebuttal, but it’s far too long to post here, especially since I was distracted from writing with a barrage of instant messages. Sigh. Funnily enough, in one of them, we were talking about the Ocarina of Time and time manipulation, unrelated to the article.

    Summary of my rebuttal: Artistic liberties can be taken with canon to fill in the gaps. But an astounding article, TML. Really excellent work on this one, especially since you probably forever ruined the gray matter of so many!

    So Majora’s Mask doesn’t exist now does it? To assume that the Ocarina of Time and the Master Sword use the same method of time travel is rather unreasonable, especially considering that the Master Sword was not geared toward time travel in the first place, while the Ocarina of Time essentially is. Link was not of the right age when he drew the Master Sword, being locked away in the Sacred Realm for 7 years. Sure, the sword goes on to serve as a device to jump through time, yet the Sacred Realm most likely plays apart in this action as well, considering it’s need for the initial time travel to occur. (Although it wasn’t really time traveling, Link was unaware of the passage of time so it seemed instant to him.) The Ocarina of Time however, seems to not rely on any other factor as seen in Majora’s Mask. We essentially have three different forms of time travel between the two games; the Master Sword, Link playing the Ocarina to send himself back to a specific time with the Song of Time, and Zelda using the song of the Royal Family to send Link to a different time. All different, so why would they have the same results?

    In regards to the Song of Storms and the split time line mentioned, its generally believed (at least I do) that the split occurs when Zelda uses the Ocarina to send Link to a different time. All the other time traveling in that game occurs in the same time line, so the Song of Storms is not really a problem.

    I agree with the idea that one cannot use every little detail within the Zelda games for evidence of a time line and is a concept that I used when I formed an opinion on the matter. Nintendo is just not that concerned with the story telling aspect of the Zelda series, they are much more concerned about game play. Twilight Princess was even mirrored at seemingly the last minute so that Link would be a righty, despite having the sun rise in the west and other similar oddities… One must also remember that Nintendo could have and most likely did mess up. There is also the concept of easter eggs to consider…

    Masamune said:

    While I applaud you for the theory, I want to just throw this out:

    Link learns the Song of Storms in Majora’s Mask from one of the Composer Brothers. Therefor is it not plausible that Link would then teach Guru-Guru the song in that way?

    I don’t think so, but let me cover each theory and explain why:

    Split Timeline Theory
    The overall structure of the game has Link originally in Timeline A and then switching over to Timeline B when Zelda sends him back in time at the end of the game. (Technically there are (at least) two extra timelines that get created for the Song of Storms/Beneath the Well as well as the child half of the Spirit Temple, but those are unimportant). Now, we know the Guru-Guru Man knew the Song of Storms in Timeline A when he shouldn’t, and the proposal as stands is to use the “Majora Fix” to rectify that.

    This is impossible for two reasons:
    • Once Link joins Timeline B because he is sent back, he cannot affect Timeline A. Since Timeline B is typically the child timeline where Majora’s Mask resides, the “Majora Fix” cannot affect the timeline which holds the contradiction.
    • The “Majora Fix” would work if Majora’s Mask occured within Timeline A. However, this would have had to occur before any occurrence of Link going back in time (since this would spawn yet another timeline, thus forcing Link out of Timeline A. Since Link knew Zelda at the beginning of Majora, this means that Majora must occur between Link meeting Zelda and Link drawing the Master Sword the first time, but beyond the fact that there is no canon evidence of this, it is also an unreasonable expectation for that to exist. (Furthermore, the existance of Navi during that whole segment of Ocarina but NOT during Majora is a direct contradiction of that possibility.)

    Thus, the contradiction holds.

    Future Elimination Theory

    Unfortunately, it doesn’t work here for the same reason. The future is only overwritten when a time traveller goes back in time to change events, and the future only corrects itself for only those events that changed with that time travel. The future history does not change to account for subsequent trips through time that have not occurred yet.

    That said, if Future A is the original future, Future B is the next future caused by Link teaching the Guru-Guru Man the Song of Storms, and Future C is the one where Zelda sends Link back through time, Majora’s Mask must logically occur in Future C, but since Future C cannot affect A, the “Majora Fix” does not apply.

    Future Predestination Theory

    The “Majora fix” is moot in this case since the Song of Storms works fine, but rather the end of the game causes this theory to fail.

    Though still, Masamune, it was a brilliant idea that I actually hadn’t thought about when I posted this, and it definitely caused me to think a moment before I answered!

    Gary_Jinfield said:

    To assume that the Ocarina of Time and the Master Sword use the same method of time travel is rather unreasonable, especially considering that the Master Sword was not geared toward time travel in the first place, while the Ocarina of Time essentially is.

    I’m not so sure I can be convinced of this. It may seem like an unwieldy requirement, this is true, but there is reason to suspect this. Since I can easily toss out Majora’s time travelling argument by calling Termina a different dimension than Hyrule (and thus potentially subject to different rules), I can still get back down to the two timeline possibilities we know and love.

    As far as why the two should be different? Well, why aren’t they the same? Let’s compare some quotes:

    Sheik: If you want to return to your original time, return the Master Sword to the Pedestal of Time. [empahsis mine]

    Zelda: As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it. … Regain your lost time! [empahsis mine]

    Note here we have the exact same verbage used to describe how the Master Sword works as well as how the Song of Time works.

    Sheik: As long as you hold the Ocarina of Time and the Master Sword, you hold time itself in your hands… [emphasis mine]

    Note how both artefacts were used here in tandem together. It’s not that one or the other allows Link to manipulate time, but both together!

    Zelda: You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time… However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed…

    Note here that, according to canon, the Master Sword being at rest prevents the Song of Time from manipulating time. Thus, the Song of Time must certainly be no stronger than the Master Sword is. Either one must assume that the Song of Time is weaker than the Master Sword (and thus would be unable to split timelines if the Master Sword could not) or is as strong as the Master Sword and indeed works in tandem with it, thus having identical properties.

    Sheik: Past, present, future… The Master Sword is a ship with which you can sail upstream and downstream through time’s river…

    I’m adding this quote even though it’s not as crucial to the comparison because I want to point out that the Sacred Realm probably doesn’t have anything to do with the time travelling capabilities of the sword. It seems as if the Master Sword itself is the item which has the ability to do it on its own. I still could be reading too much into that one, but the other quotes taken from canon should solidify enough comparisons between the Ocarina of Time and the Master Sword to make my “restriction” stick.

    This is all way too creepy of a thought for me.

    TML I think that the best example of this would be the Cell Saga from Dragon Ball Z, Vegetas future son comes back in time from a world which has been destroyed by the evil Androids, a world where the main character Goku is dead, having been killed by a virus just before the Androids show up. Now Trunks gives Goku a cure for the virus thus altering the future, after this Trunks goes back to the future but this leads to events changing and new more poweful Androids appearing and the lifeform known as Cell, Trunks then realises that his future has not changed and that there is now a split-timeline which means things can not be put right to the way they were, he can only go back and help to protect the split world which gives himt he strength to travel back to his own time/world and rid it of evil… phew.

    Related to what a few people say, one can alter the future. Anyone of us can alter our own futures, it just depends what we do. Link went to the future, which the actions in the future cannot affect the past, so therefor, when Link learns/teaches the Song of Storms, he caused a small TToTT complex here, but (theoretically) when Link was sent back, he was sent ALL THE BACK to when he first pulled the sword. Being sent that far, every action caused after he woke up seven year in the future, and the few returns, have never been done, and have been overwritten with the action in MM and possibly more, until TP. The only way a split timeline could occur if Link ever went to a Parallel Universe (I think Termina is on the other side of the planet Hyrule is on) and caused some sort of controversy to join the paralell universes into one univere, conjoined at the beginning, and splitting off forever. This could cause many problems, like a “Prince and the Pauper” problem, where two people live at the same time, but existing in different way. Like, think with me, think of, Link and Zelda in one side, and Linkerella and Zelus on the other side. They could even meet each other, and the world won’t collapse or the timeline split, but it be like Strange Days at Blake Holsely High (in a way) and I’m sure, by now, the readers, your dying from over-fed brains (if you chose to read this) so I’m gonna stop.

    I have a theory, that so far, none have suggested. When we first meet Guru-guru in the future, he raives about an imp. When I think about it now, I think of a sort of ’shadow’ that teaches Guru-guru the song of storms, and becomes eliminated when Young Link teaches Guru-guru the song of storms.

    I think of this ’shadow’ as an imp, sort of like the skullchildren, but more along the lines of a minion of ganon. It’s not that hard to imagine, a child that is under the control of Ganon has a flute and ends up teaching Guru-guru the song of storms. When I think of this, I think of him as a sort of shadow. I must place key emphasis on this point, for it is a shadow that is very vulnerable, and as soon as young Link teaches Guru-guru, the shadow becomes nonexistant…

    When I use the term ’shadow’ I think of something like a Four Dimensional shape rendered into three dimensions, like the infamous Hypercube.

    I’d like you to take a few minutes to think about my theory. Just to get a grasp at the point I’m trying to make. It is at least tangent to what happens in-game…

    This is a theory that I have so far, not met anyone who has thought of this… So please, try to take a moment to see what I’m talking about.

    There is too much about space and time that man is unaware of. Who is to say that reality will occur as man argues it to occur?

    Darth Citrus said:

    0_o

    My freaking brain HURTS now.

    Same here!
    BTW, I just got the Wii!

    While I agree with your overall point that nitpicking cannon details ultimately defuncts timelines, I really don’t agree with your rational for rebuttal 1. There isn’t anything that directly says that the Ocarina of Time and Master Sword operate in different ways, but I think there is an implication that they do. If they function the same way, two questions come up:

    1. If they function the same way, why does Zelda use the Ocarina of Time to send Link to the past? Wouldn’t returning the Master Sword to the pedestal of time have worked just as well?

    2. If they function the same way, why doesn’t Link simply place the Master Sword in the pedestal of Time, return to the past, and just “relive his childhood” then and there?

    The one flaw in both these points is, that, “Nintendo wanted a time travel mechanic but also wanted to make sure the 2nd half of the game is completed,” but if we are playing the canon game, this isn’t really an argument.

    I don’t want to get more into canon trivialities, but with the quotes in the game of using the Master Sword and Ocarina in tandem to time travel, couldn’t they simply be referring to the Ocarina opening the Door of Time and allowing access to the Master Sword? Until you get to the end of the game, the Ocarina is never used to facilitate time travel.

    Now, this isn’t to deride you’re argument TML, cause I think it’s a brilliant way to show the flaws in canon nitpicking, but I just feel that, everything else being equal, there is more evidence in OoT to support a difference in the time travel mechanics of the Master Sword and Ocarina of Time, than to support that they work in the same way.

    In the end I totally agree with you. If Nintendo is barely consistent with time within a game, how can you hope for Nintendo to be consistent over the whole series when you are nitpicking at details?

    Dark Mime Gogo said:

    I have a theory, that so far, none have suggested. When we first meet Guru-guru in the future, he raives about an imp. When I think about it now, I think of a sort of ’shadow’ that teaches Guru-guru the song of storms, and becomes eliminated when Young Link teaches Guru-guru the song of storms.

    Uhm… what? Not in my game…

    WINDMILL MAN:
    Grrrrrrrrr! I’ll never forget what happened on that day, seven years ago! Grrrrrrrrr! It’s all that Ocarina kid’s fault! Next time he comes around here, I’m gonna mess him up!

    What?! You’ve got an ocarina!! What the heck! That reminds me of that time, seven years ago! Back then a mean kid came here and played a strange song. It messed up this windmill!
    I’ll never forget this song! [empahsis mine]

    The Guru-Guru Map doesn’t complain about an imp. O_o

    t_mo_therapy said:

    … I think there is an implication that they do. If they function the same way, two questions come up:

    1. If they function the same way, why does Zelda use the Ocarina of Time to send Link to the past? Wouldn’t returning the Master Sword to the pedestal of time have worked just as well?

    2. If they function the same way, why doesn’t Link simply place the Master Sword in the pedestal of Time, return to the past, and just “relive his childhood” then and there?

    Not quite. You forgot the Door of Time. Replacing the Master Sword doesn’t close the Door of Time, thus theoretically allowing Link to re-enter the Temple of Time and have his way with time. Now, Zelda could have given Link the Ocarina and told him to do it, but then the possibility that he would disobey that order would still be a possibility… not to mention what would happen if the Ocarina of Time got stolen by someone else. By leaving the Ocarina in the future (presumably where Zelda could hide it), she pretty much severed the link completely. That argument actually fulfils canon quite neatly given the properties we know about the Song of Time and the Door of Time.

    I’ll also refer you to Comment #14 above where I show that there are great implications for them working together, especially this quote:

    Sheik: As long as you hold the Ocarina of Time and the Master Sword, you hold time itself in your hands… [emphasis mine]

    This yields some heavy evidence that the Master Sword nor the Ocarina of Time is an all-in-one artefact. Rather, both of them together control time, thus explaining your argument.

    Allow me to explain myself. I may have been thinking of an imp when I first heard that from Guru-guru…

    I guess the reason why I was thinking of an imp was because the skullkids are the only other ones in the game that have a flute… ‘ocarina’…

    When you think about it, ganon did a lot of damage over the seven years. So it could be a sort of shadow that makes everything turn out the way it does, while avoiding the grandfather paradox of the thing. Maybe the shadow wasn’t necessarily controlled by Ganon, but I still think that there was a shadow that came to Kakariko and taught the mysterious song. It is perhaps, a better explanation as to the origin, rather than having everything loop over and over again.

    Do we actually have an actual origin of the song, other than the continuous time loop? There’s another thing, how come the song of storms is played inside the windmill the entire time, even when you visit him at the very beginning…?

    I guess maybe that strange shadow would explain a few things. We, after all, do not know exactly what happened over the seven years, only broad, nonspecific details. So its plausible that a shadow with an ocarina could have been the original one to teach Guru-guru. Shadow > Guru-guru > Link > Young LInk > Guru Guru > etc…

    Eight words that make the timeline out of control: Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Four Swords Adventures…

    Dark Mime Gogo said:

    When you think about it, ganon did a lot of damage over the seven years. So it could be a sort of shadow that makes everything turn out the way it does, while avoiding the grandfather paradox of the thing. Maybe the shadow wasn’t necessarily controlled by Ganon, but I still think that there was a shadow that came to Kakariko and taught the mysterious song. It is perhaps, a better explanation as to the origin, rather than having everything loop over and over again.

    Except for the point that we went back in time and tortured the Windmill Man with the song first. And he didn’t know about it before then.

    Truth be told, no, there is no true origin to the Song of Storms inside Ocarina. You do learn it from the Terminian composers, but that stuff would happen AFTER Link taught it to the Guru-Guru Man… who is who taught it to him… who taught it to the Guru-Guru Man… who taught it to…

    *thinks of what to say for a long time* uh..*thinks some more*…now I really want an ocarina!!!!I just read about one for more than 40 minutes :P !

    about the subject…yeah,I really didnt understand a word you said :? .but I would like to sugest this:it is possible that some normal NPC boy came in the wind mill playing a song on his ocarina (though theres already a problem…a NPC has an ocarina and I dont !?!) that happened to be a magical song,and well,caused the windmill to go nuts.I mean,thats what I thought it was the first time I played :/ .

    also the way I looked at time travel is that link went back and overwrote hyrules future (ever wonder why zeldas sad at the end :P ),hyrules future,not the sacred realms (where ganondorf is).link could live his life untill he goes nuts with bordom,goes to see zelda,gets the ocarina,and goes to terminia.or…you could look at time travel more scientifically in which case everybodys atomic structure in hyrule is taken apart and put back the way it was and where it was at the time you choose to go to (or dont) :P .im just kidding,and no ive never thought of how to make time travel possible :D .

    honestly,this article is worse than TToTT (as far as brain damage is conserned -_- ).

    Shadow Ninja Kakashi said:

    about the subject…yeah,I really didnt understand a word you said :? .but I would like to sugest this:it is possible that some normal NPC boy came in the wind mill playing a song on his ocarina (though theres already a problem…a NPC has an ocarina and I dont !?!) that happened to be a magical song,and well,caused the windmill to go nuts.I mean,thats what I thought it was the first time I played :/ .

    Only possible if you disregard canon. ;) After all, there’s no canon evidence to suggest this, especially since the Windmill Dude never knew the song PRIOR to us coming in, never had seen an ocarina before. The reference is obvious that he means us because, well, we are required to do it.

    But again, if you disregard bits of canon here and there, then this article doesn’t apply to your theory anyway. ;)

    honestly,this article is worse than TToTT (as far as brain damage is conserned -_- ).

    I did warn. ;)

    Just a little devil’s advocate quesion:

    How can we be absolutely sure that that Mean Ocarina Kid is actually Link? Why can’t it be some other kid with an ocarina who just so happened to know the theory-trashing Song of Storms. And Link then goes on to learn the Song and plays it in the past instead of the other MOK.

    To tell you the truth, I am (or was, at least: I haven’t been in a timeline debate since Davogones left the de facto position of leadership at Zelda Legends) a huge timeline and canon enthusiast. That means that you telling me that those two cannot go hand in hand is… disturbing to me.

    Not that I’m a fanatic, but I find that there’s plenty of room for facts and poetic license out there. So yeah, you can kinda count me in for the Zelda Jihad. CANON AND TIMELINE CANNOT TURN ON EACH OTHER.

    It would really make no sense.

    Then again, not that it’s mattered for the past nine years.

    TML: 1
    Dark Mime Gogo: 3

    :D I’m just messin’ with ya!

    But these guys are agreeing with my point, that there may have been another mean ocarina kid. Link isn’t, after all, the only one with an ocarina. So it actually is quite plausible… WE have no idea as to the actual origin of the song of storms… why, even… it’s possible that it actually originated in Terminia, but did NOT come here via Link. That is to say, I think its possible that someone from the alternate dimension of Terminia made a ’shadow’ appearance after Link disappeared, and taught Guru-guru the song.

    I’m not saying that Link was the one who brought the song over, I’m saying its possible that a mischevous kid who happened to somehow know the song of storms and went and screwed around.

    It’s like dimensional manipulation… you know, we’ve always heard stories of how a traveller from another place does weird things… it might be theoritically possible for a kid (not necessarily of termina) to mess up everything and throw it all out of balance… Mischevious manipulator, anyone?

    Faethin said:

    Just a little devil’s advocate quesion:

    Oh I love these things. :} I do this all the time to others.

    How can we be absolutely sure that that Mean Ocarina Kid is actually Link? Why can’t it be some other kid with an ocarina who just so happened to know the theory-trashing Song of Storms. And Link then goes on to learn the Song and plays it in the past instead of the other MOK.

    Well, let’s drive this into the ground, just for the sake of argument.

    Aside from the obvious fact that no one seems to have played this song PRIOR to Link going back in time to play him the Song of Storms (or otherwise Beneath the Well would ALREADY be open and the Windmill Guy would be saying something like “Oh no, it’s happening AGAIN!”), the parallels of this make too much sense. However, for the sake of the argument, we’ll pretend.

    So Link, as we all know, was at least someone who came in and made the windmill spin too fast. In fact, he was the first one to do so. So if there was theoretically another kid to have done so, this should have changed the Windmill Guy’s statement to their being TWO mean kids. However, since he doesn’t speak of their being only one kid after this fact, then we can’t use this as direct canon.

    So we argue it a different way. We have to ask where the Song of Storms came from. This must be a magical song, and it must be played by a magical instrument. The restrictions on this are rather crazy, a very narrow case in which there is no canon evidence to support that such a person even indeed exists. What more, they would have had to have come up with the song on their own (or known something that even WE) didn’t know. Furthermore, our going back and playing the Song of Storms before whomever else played the Song of Storms for the man seems to make no changes to the future history; everything seems to play out identical to how it happened before we ever did so. Thus, the strictest form of canon would easily say that Link was the person to whom the Guru-Guru Man was referring to.

    A possibility that someone else could be that person is, as always, a possibility, but the canon doesn’t support it directly; that’s an added assumption. ;) And that places it outside the bounds of the whole disproof.

    To tell you the truth, I am (or was, at least: I haven’t been in a timeline debate since Davogones left the de facto position of leadership at Zelda Legends) a huge timeline and canon enthusiast. That means that you telling me that those two cannot go hand in hand is… disturbing to me.

    Well, perhaps I should explain it in a better way. If the canon could support a timeline, why haven’t we found it by now? Or even stronger yet, why haven’t we been able to agree upon a single timeline template? What about the Four Swords Paradox? What about… Twilight? These things have played with the timeline to the point of snapping it whenever you look at these things too closely.

    Not that I’m a fanatic, but I find that there’s plenty of room for facts and poetic license out there. So yeah, you can kinda count me in for the Zelda Jihad. CANON AND TIMELINE CANNOT TURN ON EACH OTHER.

    Now what I’m not advocating is completely banishing canon. I’m just arguing is that you can have differing levels of canon within the game. A random quip that a Gossip stone made is much less important than, say, Ganon’s death. What I am advocating quite strongly, however, is for people to be lenient about tossing out a theory just because it violates a single iota of evidence.

    Dark Mime Gogo said:

    But these guys are agreeing with my point, that there may have been another mean ocarina kid. Link isn’t, after all, the only one with an ocarina. So it actually is quite plausible… WE have no idea as to the actual origin of the song of storms… why, even… it’s possible that it actually originated in Terminia, but did NOT come here via Link. That is to say, I think its possible that someone from the alternate dimension of Terminia made a ’shadow’ appearance after Link disappeared, and taught Guru-guru the song.

    But you see, I’m actually not disagreeing with you… kind of. ;)

    On one hand, I am completely not dismissing your case. Is it a possibility? Of course it is. There’s nothing that says that no one else came up with it. But that person has to have been a rare individual for several reasons. For the theory to hold, you must have someone with a rare set of talents:

    • He or she has a magical instrument.
    • He or she had the knowledge of or created a magical song.
    • He or she had to have played the song for the Guru-Guru Man in the first timeline (Split Timeline Theory) or future (Future Elimination Theory), which means that they couldn’t have learned it from Termina (since that takes place after the split or after the future is destroyed).

    Could such a person have existed? Sure, it’s possible. Implausible, but possible.

    However, which is the more likely candidate, that it was Link or that it was this person that we’ve never heard of before? ESPECIALLY considering that you wouldn’t have even THOUGHT to play the Song of Storms at the Windmill in the past if the Guru-Guru Man hadn’t taught it to you and complained about something seven years ago.

    I think the answer to that one is that Link is the more obvious candidate, and so the canon supports Link and not Imaginary Person Number 169.

    So when you invent your imaginary person, you break canon. However, you also by doing so invent a legal timeline. Thus the crux of this article to begin with. ;)

    Aaaaghhh!!! My brain hurts from reading all these comments! I believe that the Majora’s Mask thing Masa suggested could, if the timelines were somehow able to mingle with one another (which is most likely impossible), provide a solution to the contradictory history and aspects of the Song of Storms in Ocarina

    *sigh* Still ignored. Alrighty then, think this, this is support for a Single Timeline Theory, using evidence from the Multiple Timeline Theory. Ok, Link is put into a seven year sleep, but he doesn’t stay in the Temple of Time. If you sen the movie, “Click,” you might understand (since people are throwing in all sorts of time stuff) ok, Link leave the Temple of Time, the lights are on, but nobody’s home. He wanders into Termina, and does Majora’s Mask whilst sleeping, and eventually learns the Song of Storms. Eventually, he saves the world, and returns to Hyrule, and no-one noticed he was gone. Then he went to Guru-Guru, and played the Song of Storms to him. Then the events that he told to Adult Link happened, and now… you imagine the rest. When the seven years were up, Link snapped out of it, and went to “learn” the Song of Storms from him. THAT HAS to be a possibility.

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    *sigh* Still ignored. Alrighty then, think this, this is support for a Single Timeline Theory, using evidence from the Multiple Timeline Theory. Ok, Link is put into a seven year sleep, but he doesn’t stay in the Temple of Time. If you sen the movie, “Click,” you might understand (since people are throwing in all sorts of time stuff) ok, Link leave the Temple of Time, the lights are on, but nobody’s home. He wanders into Termina, and does Majora’s Mask whilst sleeping, and eventually learns the Song of Storms. Eventually, he saves the world, and returns to Hyrule, and no-one noticed he was gone. Then he went to Guru-Guru, and played the Song of Storms to him. Then the events that he told to Adult Link happened, and now… you imagine the rest. When the seven years were up, Link snapped out of it, and went to “learn” the Song of Storms from him. THAT HAS to be a possibility.

    I responded to you or at least something very similar to you. You just didn’t pay attention.

    Where’s Navi during this time? Navi was with Link prior to going into the Temple of Time. Navi was with Link when he grew up. Why isn’t Navi with him in Termina?

    Alternatively, who is the friend that Link is trying to find in Termina? If it’s Navi, then that’s a contradiction. Epona doesn’t work either since he never had Epona yet.

    The Missing Link said:

    But you see, I’m actually not disagreeing with you… kind of. ;)

    On one hand, I am completely not dismissing your case. Is it a possibility? Of course it is. There’s nothing that says that no one else came up with it. But that person has to have been a rare individual for several reasons. For the theory to hold, you must have someone with a rare set of talents:

    • He or she has a magical instrument.
    • He or she had the knowledge of or created a magical song.
    • He or she had to have played the song for the Guru-Guru Man in the first timeline (Split Timeline Theory) or future (Future Elimination Theory), which means that they couldn’t have learned it from Termina (since that takes place after the split or after the future is destroyed).

    What if Termina existed parallel to hyrule at all times and at all points? Canon, does not, after all say that Termina existed at only one point in time. What I’m saying is, I think your implying that the universes between Termina and Hyrule were joined at only one time: After Link was sent back to the past. All loops in space and time, MUST begin somewhere. If you killed your father, that starts the cycle of nonexistance. But here, we have a cycle over which it is constantly repeating itself; there was no element that originally fostered this cycle and set it into motion. In order for things to be, I am suggesting some way, some form, that a magical individual IE NOT Link fostered this. Link is not the only one with magical ability to affect things ouside of our universe’s laws. For all we know, it might be some kid that the happy mask man salesman sent out, as he is known to be one of the few that can traverse the parallel warp.

    But this is all speculation…

    Ever get that feeling of Deja vu, where things seem to be the same, but they really aren’t? I believe that’s how Guru-guru felt when he said “It’s happening again!” Link does not necessarily have to be the same, the only thing that has to be the same is the affect: that things go out of control mysteriously.

    ALl cycles must have a beginning in order to set into motion. There is no exception, even in dealing with time paradoxes.

    In fact, a magical entity (Imp) could very well do all of this. IF there was no imp, no event which set this cycle into motion, then the cycle would never be there to begin with. However, there is a cycle, therefore, there must be an element that set the cycle in motion.

    The Missing Link said:Where’s Navi during this time?

    hopefuly dead :P .btw Jumanji Shishioh,nobodys ignoring you,there all just busy picking up there brains (much like in TToTT…I just remembered I am allergic to timelines :D )

    oh yeah,and it couldnt be a random NPC that played the song,the stupid wind mill man says “it was you who played it!” …jerk -_- .I thought it would be:link sleeps for 7 years>NPC kid plays song>link learns song>kid link plays song>kid link becomes the “ocarina boy”,but I guess not.to be honest I only made that theory up to figure out the song of storms part (instint headache ;) ) .oh well,im not really a strict time line person,I hardly do timelines at all,I just think about some games that sort of connect.

    …how much does a good ocarina go for,80$ ^_^ ?

    Dark Mime Gogo said:

    What if Termina existed parallel to hyrule at all times and at all points? Canon, does not, after all say that Termina existed at only one point in time. What I’m saying is, I think your implying that the universes between Termina and Hyrule were joined at only one time: After Link was sent back to the past. All loops in space and time, MUST begin somewhere. If you killed your father, that starts the cycle of nonexistance. But here, we have a cycle over which it is constantly repeating itself; there was no element that originally fostered this cycle and set it into motion. In order for things to be, I am suggesting some way, some form, that a magical individual IE NOT Link fostered this. Link is not the only one with magical ability to affect things ouside of our universe’s laws. For all we know, it might be some kid that the happy mask man salesman sent out, as he is known to be one of the few that can traverse the parallel warp.

    I can’t and don’t discount the possibility that Hyrule and Termina were connected more than just that one occurrence; however, for the sake of sanity, we do have to be realists and realise two things: (1) No one else knows about Termina, not even Zelda (who knows an awful darn lot), and (2) no one ever mentions that oh their poor so-and-so is lost and I’ve looked EVERYWHERE IN HYRULE for him! The same exists for Hyrule in Termina. So it must be very hard to squeeze through whatever connection does exist. Yet still, there’s a glimpse of a chance that, yes, you are right. (However, this HAD to have happened after Link himself did this timeline-wise.) Be that as it may…

    But this is all speculation…

    Read: Not canon. Thus, I’m not threatened by it. ;)

    I’ve sort of put you guys in a bind on this thread because I forced you to come up with a non-canon explanation of the paradox. And while it’s a perfectly valid conclusion (and thus “timeline” of Ocarina/Majora), there’s still no proof to back it up, so I can dismiss it. I’m not arguing that there’s no timeline, y’see. I’m only arguing that there’s no timeline if you believe in canon. ;)

    ALl cycles must have a beginning in order to set into motion. There is no exception, even in dealing with time paradoxes.

    Bill & Ted. Nuff said.

    I quit canon a long time ago, myself =P

    I imagine this scene:

    Miyamoto: We need a way to mess with the heads of our player.

    Sci-Fi Geek Programmer: How about slipping in a time paradox?

    Story Writer: Oh! Link can learn something as an adult, and as a child teach it to the guy he learned it from as an adult!

    Miyamoto, sitting at his desk, fingertips touching: Excellent.

    As I see it, when Link is sent back in time, the sages seal Ganondorf. Now that they know he’s a threat, and they’ve been awakened, they can seal him away (as soon as Link is no longer in the Temple of Time, or else he’d be sealed as well). This leaves Link as a kid with the Triforce, Ganondorf sealed away and plotted for his Wind Waker-backdrop story escape, and Zelda to spy into windows. This of course requires the sages to be able to seal Ganondorf in the past…

    Eh, I’ll go back to my “multiple Ganondorfs in one timeline” theory to help me thread games together. Hey, if Zelda 1 and 2 can present two Zeldas…

    Well, its always possible Zelda/Sheik taught the Guru guy the Song of Storms during the seven years while Link was asleep in the Chamber of Sages. After all, Zelda/Sheik teaches you almost all of the magical songs (warp songs, Song of Time) in the game, she’s the most likely person to know the Song of Storms. She also has precognition so she might have been able to sense that Link would need the song later (or in this case, sooner on). She also knows how to play an ocarina. Sooo…

    After Link is sealed inside the Chamber of Sages, young Sheik goes into the Windmill with an ocarina and plays the Song of Storms to guru guy and messes up windmill. Afterall, guru guy only describes the person who taught him the song originally as the “Ocarina kid” and a “he”; so that can apply to a kid Sheik with an ocarina because the other characters in the game who’ve met Sheik think Zelda (as Sheik) is a guy (Ruto). Meanwhile, Link ages seven years and gets out of Chamber of Sages. Goes to Windmill and angry guru guy teaches song to Link. The guru guy would know the song because Zelda has already taught it to him. Then Link goes back in time to reteach it to him. Because Link goes back to BEFORE he picks up the master sword and sleeps for seven years, the guru guy does NOT know the song yet.

    Of course theres no direct canon proof that Zelda did, but she is the most likely person to do it. You just have to assume she knew the song, knew Link would need it, and taught it to the guru guy as kid Sheik with an ocarina while Link was trapped in the Chamber of Sages. As for the magical instrument requirement… I always thought the songs themselves were magical and it doesn’t matter what you play them on.

    Actually, I never really thought of this before because I don’t think the game makers really have a timeline for the game so their not gonna try to fix the Song of Storms inconsistency or whatever you’d call it. Plus,with time travel I just expect it’d have all kinds of paradoxes (like Prisoner of Azkaban; how can Harry save himself and Sirius, AFTER he’s died!). Good article, TML. You made me think more about my favorite zelda song. And all timeslines in general. Now I have a headache, heh heh.

    you know,this reminds me of a TCG I used to play (yu-gi-oh),I would always strive to make the perfect deck (which was really just the best cards put together,well,perfectly).now that I dont play I see that was impossible.why? because the designers of the game didnt design it to be that way.intentionaly though ;) .nintendo on the other hand is a bit different.they want a time line,but since they didnt make one from the beggining its next to impossible to make a perfect time line.the only way that would be possible would be if (1) nintendo starts making strict zelda games (fat chance) and (2) time line enthusists disregard every zelda game and start over.reason being is because there are all sorts of information (canon) in the games that werent thought through enough to conect.what im saying is,even if the song of storms didnt exist (which,to be frank,would make me all the more happy :) ),a perfect time line wouldnt be possible if you look at every piece of canon.ofcoarse thats just my opinion,and im half asleep as is.

    oh and Lesoria,ive thought of that story many times :D .

    Tar-Miriel said:

    [Zelda]’s the most likely person to know the Song of Storms.

    Other than Link, of course. ;)

    After Link is sealed inside the Chamber of Sages, young Sheik goes into the Windmill with an ocarina and plays the Song of Storms to guru guy and messes up windmill.

    Again, Link would have had to do that first. Otherwise, the well would have already been opened BEFORE Link played the song for the Windmill Guy. From the perspective of the Guru-Guru Man, the first person to have ever taught him the song is Link, and no one else could have done so.

    But theoretically speaking, let’s say the Song of Storms exists outside of the Guru-Guru Man/Link time loop. Why then would Link need to go back in time and play it for the Guru-Guru Man anyway? Why didn’t Sheik just do it for him? The whole reference to some kid seven years ago playing the song for the Guru-Guru Man is a direct reference to the very solution of the puzzle. Without that key bit of evidence, no one would know how to get into the well at all! It’s because of this that I have to conclude that the whole thing is a clever ruse developed by Nintendo rather than anything sneaky about some other person teaching the song to the Windmill Man. The time loop fits so perfectly with Link, and considering that the future doesn’t change at all when Link goes back to teach the Guru-Guru Man the song, clearly that’s an important indication that, yes, the person who taught the song to the Guru-Guru Man was Link and no one else.

    Yes, can you work around the contradiction here? Of course. Does canon truly support such a workaround? I honestly don’t think so.

    When thinking about time travel, I always followed the Future Predestination Theory, made popular by the book/movie The Time Machine. In that book, the theory is played out like so: Man’s fiance is killed so he builds a time machine to go back to save her. Each time the man tries to go back in time and save her, she is killed in another way. The point is that if the man had saved his fiance, then there would have been no reason to go back in time in the first place.

    Anyways, my view of the ending of Ocarina was that Link was stuck in some sort of time travel loop where he was doomed to repeat his actions over and over again. I really don’t know though, time travel is always interesting but so full of paradoxes that it just doesn’t seem worth arguing over.

    Ok, this is now beyond my attention span.

    OK fellow ‘Bloggers and ‘Blogettes, after using every brain cell I have stored in my body on this topic (and TML’s fiesty objections to everything we say ;) ), I have come to the conclusion that, at this point in LoZ’s history, you cannot create a timeline with no contradictions. Absolutely not. The only way I see that we timeline enthusiasts can find a start point and a finish and place everything in between is if the developers at Nintendo decide to release this groundbreaking game that will make things not canon… well, canon. Like one of those episodes that they rave about on TV that will explain everything, you know? I just can’t see any other way. But I’m open to suggestions, though ;) .

    FUTURE TED: “Ted, don’t forget to set your watch!!” (But of course, he DOES forget… thus prompting the warning in the future, forever in a loop–hey, suddenly this Zelda timeline makes sense! ;) )

    One teeny nitpick: It’s Ted’s dad that is the police officer, not Bill’s. :D

    • 45. EA says:

    Excellent article, TML! You got to pick and choose your canon because canon is not canon.

    I’m sure those “I’m-right-you’re-wrong!” timeline theorists over at Zelda Legends will be fired up ;)

    0.0 all so confusing

    Halan said:

    When thinking about time travel, I always followed the Future Predestination Theory, made popular by the book/movie The Time Machine. In that book, the theory is played out like so: Man’s fiance is killed so he builds a time machine to go back to save her. Each time the man tries to go back in time and save her, she is killed in another way. The point is that if the man had saved his fiance, then there would have been no reason to go back in time in the first place.

    I love that book/movie. It was interesting, although they were different in both versions.

    Josephina said:

    …(and TML’s fiesty objections to everything we say ;) ) …

    Hey TML, your the best, and I’m not gonna make the best website in the Zelda Community.

    The Missing Link said:

    I responded to you or at least something very similar to you. You just didn’t pay attention.

    Where’s Navi during this time? Navi was with Link prior to going into the Temple of Time. Navi was with Link when he grew up. Why isn’t Navi with him in Termina?

    Alternatively, who is the friend that Link is trying to find in Termina? If it’s Navi, then that’s a contradiction. Epona doesn’t work either since he never had Epona yet.

    Well… when Link was put into “auto-pilot” Navi went “auto-pilot” too (a QUIET Navi… It’s the end of the world, argh!) and was with Link when they went to Termina. The true events of Majora’s Mask (the one we do) is after Link is sent back by our lovely Zelda (Well, excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, Princess, we just saved the world, and you want me to go back and redo time?) and then, Zelda says good bye to Link so Link can find his friend Navi and he ends up in Termina, then MM is in play. And this time, Link is NOT in “auto-pilot” plus, this is non-canon, TML, so… *dananana, nana, nananana* You can’t touch this. Lol, couldn’t resist.

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Hey TML, your the best

    Flattery will get you everywhere. ;)

    And this time, Link is NOT in “auto-pilot” plus, this is non-canon, TML, so… *dananana, nana, nananana* You can’t touch this. Lol, couldn’t resist.

    Hey, I don’t mind if you escape canon. :D It’s perfectly alright. You’re only proving the point. ;)

    Firstly, Great article. I see some Phoenix Wright inspiration here. Believe me, that game makes you want to disprove stuff, just for the purpose of saying OBJECTION!

    Secondly, I believed that Majora’s Mask HAD provided a good counterbalance, but other matter can disprove it now.

    Now one thing everyone MUST accept is that Link is the only one who could have played the Song of Storms to GG-Man in the past. Link could not have learned it from anywhere else either. Another fact is the song HAS to have been created at this point.

    The timeline I want to point out is the Single Line/No Split method. The method is the one we see in Harry Potter: PoA. In this book, the main characters use a time travel function to return to the past. One thing that sticksout is the TIMELINE DOSEN’T CHANGE! The fact the main characters don’t change anything is important. BECAUSE EVERYTHING THEY DID WAS ALREADY INCLUDED IN THE TIMELIME.

    Now the most apparent arrgument is well where did the Song of Storms come from. If there is one line and everything was predetermined then…

    Well, it means the Song of Storms didn’t have an origin. It is assumed that Link taught GG-Man, who in turn taught Link. The Single Line Method keeps the fact that the Song comes from nowhere. This was something that had been predetermined to happen. BECAUSE I BELIEVE LINK NEVER ACCTUALLY CHANGES THE FUTURE. I believe reguardless of what Link does in the future Ganondorf will rise in seven years. And a Link will walk out the Temple of Time and defeat him and disappear. The time goes on from there.

    The Emerald Wind said:

    The timeline I want to point out is the Single Line/No Split method. The method is the one we see in Harry Potter: PoA. In this book, the main characters use a time travel function to return to the past. One thing that sticksout is the TIMELINE DOSEN’T CHANGE! The fact the main characters don’t change anything is important. BECAUSE EVERYTHING THEY DID WAS ALREADY INCLUDED IN THE TIMELIME.

    Huh, I never thought of that before. Good eye, Mr. Emerald Wind. That is a plausible canon theory. *gives Emerald Wind a piece of paper* Wish TML would count mine as canon, but I didn’t want him to object it.

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Huh, I never thought of that before. Good eye, Mr. Emerald Wind. That is a plausible canon theory. *gives Emerald Wind a piece of paper*

    Also known as Future Predestination Theory. See article above. ;)

    Wish TML would count mine as canon, but I didn’t want him to object it.

    Actually, there’s a (or rather, another)very simple reason why your theory isn’t canon. In Ocarina, Zelda gave the Ocarina to Link to defeat Ganondorf. In Majora (which you claim happened AFTER the Ocarina-giving but BEFORE the adult portion of the timeline), Zelda gives the Ocarina to Link again to look for his friend. The Ocarina cannot be given twice by Zelda, thus it breaks canon. ;)

    Objection! What if Adult Zelda went back in time and gave her younger self the Ocarina, some time after the end of OoT.

    I hate time travel.there are so many ways of looking at it it makes it hard to even begin to discus something.it dosent exactly help my brain dosnt understand the half of it :? .

    The Missing Link said:
    Actually, there’s a (or rather, another)very simple reason why your theory isn’t canon. In Ocarina, Zelda gave the Ocarina to Link to defeat Ganondorf. In Majora (which you claim happened AFTER the Ocarina-giving but BEFORE the adult portion of the timeline), Zelda gives the Ocarina to Link again to look for his friend. The Ocarina cannot be given twice by Zelda, thus it breaks canon. ;)

    I dont know,he gives the ocarina back to zelda at the end of OOT,why wouldnt she have it to re-give it to link in the second MM? ofcoarse im of the theory that the future gets erased and the ocarina of time is unafected since it is the sorce of the magic that causes the time travel.

    on a smaller note,I was thinking (gasp!).what if when kid link got his spirit sealed in the sacred realm ganondorf used his body to create dark link? didnt that area become corupt or something anyways? maybe he didnt look so dark and he played the song to the windmill guy.why he would do that? I havnt a clue,but dont use the “why would he do that if it would help link” trick on me to disprove my theory,I dont need a reason :P !

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Objection! What if Adult Zelda went back in time and gave her younger self the Ocarina, some time after the end of OoT.

    Precisely what #53 said. Going by your theory where the future doesn’t change (Future Predestination), Link already had the Ocarina of Time. Why would he need another? ;)

    The Missing Link said:

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Objection! What if Adult Zelda went back in time and gave her younger self the Ocarina, some time after the end of OoT.

    Precisely what #53 said. Going by your theory where the future doesn’t change (Future Predestination), Link already had the Ocarina of Time. Why would he need another? ;)

    are we talking about kid link or adult link? adult link wouldnt have it since he gave it to zelda,and kid link didnt have it on his return to his own time so he wouldnt have it either.besides,who wouldnt want a free ocarina ;) (and a magical one at that :O !)

    also one thing to consider about this whole mess is that zelda didnt send link back exactly seven years,but instead sent him back to regain his lost childhood.that would be right before he touched the master sword,right? im…not exactly sure what that means but im sure its something worth considering :? .*sigh* I hate when I sound like a vague NPC :| .

    Shadow Ninja Kakashi said:

    are we talking about kid link or adult link? adult link wouldnt have it since he gave it to zelda,and kid link didnt have it on his return to his own time so he wouldnt have it either.besides,who wouldnt want a free ocarina ;) (and a magical one at that :O !)

    Hold the phone… time out. Let’s show how this goes.

    The theory on the table here is that (young) Link, while sleeping in the Temple of Time, went off and did Majora’s Mask. This is the first iteration of Link’s seven-year time journey, not the second one after he got sent back by Zelda. That Link did have the Ocarina, which is when it was proposed that he did Majora’s Mask.

    also one thing to consider about this whole mess is that zelda didnt send link back exactly seven years,but instead sent him back to regain his lost childhood.that would be right before he touched the master sword,right? im…not exactly sure what that means but im sure its something worth considering :? .*sigh* I hate when I sound like a vague NPC :| .

    Unless you believe Future Predestination, exactly when that is doesn’t matter. If you believe Future Predestination, then I believe I covered that in the article.

    The Missing Link said:
    Hold the phone… time out. Let’s show how this goes.

    The theory on the table here is that (young) Link, while sleeping in the Temple of Time, went off and did Majora’s Mask. This is the first iteration of Link’s seven-year time journey, not the second one after he got sent back by Zelda. That Link did have the Ocarina, which is when it was proposed that he did Majora’s Mask.

    oh,I see…told you I didnt understand any of this ^_^’ .

    The Missing Link said:
    Unless you believe Future Predestination, exactly when that is doesn’t matter. If you believe Future Predestination, then I believe I covered that in the article.

    to tell the truth I had no idea there were more than two timelines,and that would be single time line and split time line :P .I just happened to think of that info but couldnt remember what it exactly pertained to.

    It’s possible that someone else played the Song of Storms.

    The Fairy Ocarina could use magic songs, so they’re not limited to the Ocarina of Time. The only song limited to the Ocarina of Time is the Song of Time. Any ocarina could have been used for the Song of Storms.

    While Character X’s existance could be considered fanon, you’ve just proved that it couldn’t have been Link, and since it’s impossible for Link to have done it, the only other possible reason would be because someone else played it.

    Any kid could have played it on any ocarina.

    See chart for example: http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1531/songofstorms0ge.jpg

    Volcan said:

    It’s possible that someone else played the Song of Storms.

    The Fairy Ocarina could use magic songs, so they’re not limited to the Ocarina of Time. The only song limited to the Ocarina of Time is the Song of Time. Any ocarina could have been used for the Song of Storms.

    Well, technically there’s no proof one way or the other for that one. While it is true that Saria’s Song will indeed work on the Fairy Ocarina (as well as a few other tunes), we don’t know if certain songs can be played on any ocarina and achieve the same affect. For example, the Song of Time should only work on the Ocarina of Time itself; otherwise, Link wouldn’t have needed the Ocarina of Time. However, Zelda said that the song needed that special ocarina; thus it must be.

    The Song of Storms was played solely on the Ocarina of Time, so it’s truth status is unknown whether or not it could work on another ocarina. For that matter, it’s also unknown if the Fairy Ocarina is magical or not as well, thus allowing Link’s songs on it. However, for the sake of not quibbling over such an unprovable triviality, I’ll at least concede that point.

    While Character X’s existance could be considered fanon, you’ve just proved that it couldn’t have been Link, and since it’s impossible for Link to have done it, the only other possible reason would be because someone else played it.

    Any kid could have played it on any ocarina.

    Ah, but here’s the rub. If we assume that you don’t need a magical instrument, sure, anyone could have played it. But not anyone could have just made the song. Whomever played the song still had to have made the song or heard the song elsewhere and played it, and since the Song of Storms has no decisive “creation” story, that’s a hard bar to reach, placing it easily into fanon, which lies outside of the scope of this disproof to begin with. ;) Again, as I said, it’s not impossible; it’s just not canon.

    But, just for the sake of being completely accurate, you did, of course, forget one other alternate explanation. You forgot that Nintendo did screw up, thus rendering the necessity for Character X unnecessary. ;)

    Ok TML, you win in my argument, I submit. I’m just plain out of ideas. Now to sit back and listen to others try to figure this out (until I have more ideas, heh heh heh heh heh) Ok people, think and object away. I just have one question, if thhe Windmill Man was taught the Song of Storms, why does his music thing play it before you learn it?

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Ok TML, you win in my argument, I submit. I’m just plain out of ideas. Now to sit back and listen to others try to figure this out (until I have more ideas, heh heh heh heh heh) Ok people, think and object away. I just have one question, if thhe Windmill Man was taught the Song of Storms, why does his music thing play it before you learn it?

    I say a kid came and copied his music box =D !

    Just to be annoying…

    Isn’t it possible that maybe… the Skull Kid played the song?

    If I remember correctly, the old lady in the Stock Pot Inn told the story of the Skull Kid and mentioned that he had, at one point, been good friends with the Giants. Wouldn’t that imply that he had been in Termina for a good deal in time? Yet we see the same Skull Kid in Ocarina of Time… meaning that he frequently travelled between dimensions, as we saw at the beggining of Majora’s Mask. That would mean that he would have been able to learn the song off of the composer brothers, and then brought it into Hyrule.

    He also has quite the reputation of being a ‘mean kid’.

    Also, the fairy ocarina was able to use the sun song… meaning that a mundane instrument could indeed control the flow of time using a special tune. And if it indeed could control the passing of the day, why couldn’t a normal intrument summon a little rain?

    And to further that point, Sheik used a harp for all his/her magical music making. Zelda’s lullaby was also said to be a tune that harbored magical powers, without refrencing any need for it to be played on a specific instrument.

    And to be fair, when you enter the windmill as child link before you play the Song of Storms, he’s already playing the song on his little musical box. Couldn’t that mean that the ‘mean kid’ played the tune before link did, therby leaving the poor man to angrily play the tune over and over in blind rage over the kids meaness.

    And, I’m not sure on this one, but I remember him saying something along the lines of ‘not again’ when you do play it as child link.

    You assuming that it was infact Link that played the tune in the past was only as a result of interpreting references. These refrences could indeed point to other possibilites within the game (such as said Skull Kid), and is therefore not technically canon.

    However, this just further proves your point, that in order to come up with a coherent turn of events, we must use a little imagination.

    Hmm? If there is anyone willing to play the game over and check that out, come to us (or use Tool Assisted Speedruns) we’re hiring, and they will be paid in Deku Nuts.

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Hmm? If there is anyone willing to play the game over and check that out, come to us (or use Tool Assisted Speedruns) we’re hiring, and they will be paid in Deku Nuts.

    what part needs to be checked and how much deku nuts would i be payed :)

    Here’s a link to a text dump (courtesy of Gamefaqs) of Ocarina of time. Good luck finding the quotes though… A text dump is a transfer of all the text in a game from the rom to a document; IE; a text dump.

    http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/file/zelda_ocarina_of_time_dump.txt

    Remember, kids, CTRL + F is your friend!

    Darth Taya said:

    Isn’t it possible that maybe… the Skull Kid played the song?

    If I remember correctly, the old lady in the Stock Pot Inn told the story of the Skull Kid and mentioned that he had, at one point, been good friends with the Giants. Wouldn’t that imply that he had been in Termina for a good deal in time? Yet we see the same Skull Kid in Ocarina of Time… meaning that he frequently travelled between dimensions, as we saw at the beggining of Majora’s Mask. That would mean that he would have been able to learn the song off of the composer brothers, and then brought it into Hyrule.

    If it’s the same skullkid, then as I said before, of course it’s a possibility. ;)

    And to be fair, when you enter the windmill as child link before you play the Song of Storms, he’s already playing the song on his little musical box. Couldn’t that mean that the ‘mean kid’ played the tune before link did, therby leaving the poor man to angrily play the tune over and over in blind rage over the kids meaness.

    Actually, I will disagree on this one. The Guru-Guru Man specifically says that he’s trying to get some inspiration to develop a song about the windmill when you talk to him as a child. He doesn’t know the song yet. The music that’s playing very well just could be background noise, you know, like the theme that plays in Kakariko or Hyrule Field. No one’s playing that song, but it captures the ambiance of the place. So it could be with this song. So I disagree.

    And, I’m not sure on this one, but I remember him saying something along the lines of ‘not again’ when you do play it as child link.

    Nope. Only as adult Link.

    You assuming that it was infact Link that played the tune in the past was only as a result of interpreting references. These refrences could indeed point to other possibilites within the game (such as said Skull Kid), and is therefore not technically canon.

    We do have to remember that Ocarina stood as a game on its own before Majora even came about. Without Majora even present, the skull kid isn’t an obvious choice for the origin of the song, despite the fact that he exists inside Ocarina of Time. Even with Majora’s Mask in tow, you’ve got to remember how Majora came about. There was tons of direct copying of game music, character sprites, and so forth. The Song of Storms in Majora could very well have been Nintendo stringing us along by them copying plot devices; there’s no overt connection between the two.

    Again, let me repeat it here for clarity. I don’t have a problem with your theory. It’s perfectly legitimate, but when held up to canon, the connection between the skullkid and the Song of Storms is not as intuitive as the connection between Link and the Song of Storms. Thus, I have to disagree with you; the skullkid, while possible, is a stretch.

    Um, TML? You just made an error abouot the Guru-guru man and the Windmill music. You can see right then and there that he’s playing his hurdy gurdy and the fact that the background music is itself, ot the tonal quality of a hurdy gurdy, nulls your point that it could be simply background noise.

    Youo see the man playing his hurdy gurdy, so it’s obvious that there has to be some music, the music which you hear in the windmill. The two are so closely connected, even within the game universe, and within the game’s reality, it would be foolish to try to make a point that it is simply ‘background noise’.

    If you listen to the song of storms closely, you start to notice that there are some distinct but subtle differences between it and the windmill tune. That is to say, the windmill man is creating and experimenting with themes until he figures out the right one.

    So far, TML, you have used ‘canon’ as an excuse to object to everyone’s theory, when in fact, there is no canonical proof that such things didn’t happen.

    Such is the way of othis very unique paradox. I believe that a ‘phantom’ was the origin, and when intersected by a time travelling vessel, creates an infinite loop, from which no origin seems to be apparent. Unless we take a look at how time can change, the fact that this is not or was or shall ever be the only reality, tells us that a shadow that has been erased, MUST be the source of the thing, even though the thing itself does not get erased, the action of the original, does.

    Jumanji Shishioh said:

    Hmm? If there is anyone willing to play the game over and check that out, come to us (or use Tool Assisted Speedruns) we’re hiring, and they will be paid in Deku Nuts.

    check what part out? i could do it…exept im kinda stuck in the shadow medalion room o_0 .

    this site might work better:
    http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/quotefaqs/z64quotes.txt

    its not a text dump so everything is in order.

    Dark Mime Gogo said:

    Um, TML? You just made an error abouot the Guru-guru man and the Windmill music. You can see right then and there that he’s playing his hurdy gurdy and the fact that the background music is itself, ot the tonal quality of a hurdy gurdy, nulls your point that it could be simply background noise.

    Okay, but follow me here:

    • The music playing in the windmill is, in effect the Song of Storms. Same melody, same everything, more complete, over and over.
    • When the song is played, the windmill will spin VERY fast, thus causing the well to drain.
    • The Guru-Guru Man is playing something.

    If we presume that the background music is his, that he’s the one playing the Song of Storms, then why isn’t the windmill spinning fast or the well drained already?

    Answer: He’s not playing the song. ;)

    And what’s more, it makes sense that whatever he’s playing is DIFFERENT. If Link came into the windmill and played the same song (as you are suggesting), you would think that he would have complained about such. But the Windmill Man complains that the mean kid came in and played a “strange song.” This is not some song that he’s been close to getting for a thousand bars. This is a song that’s foreign to him. He’s not heard something like it before. If it was merely some variation off of his tune, the canon would have described it differently. That’s still QUITE objectionable, and I think I’m quite justified still in my conclusion. ;)

    Such is the way of othis very unique paradox. I believe that a ‘phantom’ was the origin, and when intersected by a time travelling vessel, creates an infinite loop, from which no origin seems to be apparent. Unless we take a look at how time can change, the fact that this is not or was or shall ever be the only reality, tells us that a shadow that has been erased, MUST be the source of the thing, even though the thing itself does not get erased, the action of the original, does.

    If only I could agree with you. You’re using circular logic to prove your point, and I can see through it. You still believe that canon and timeline can go hand in hand, and you’re still assuming that Ocarina of Time doesn’t have problems. And you’re using that fact to show who MUST have been the culprit of the story… and then proving that Ocarina of Time doesn’t have any problems. Well of COURSE you’ll arrive at that conclusion; you assumed it from the get go! ;)

    What I’m saying here is that there is no canon evidence to support that some shadow-figure, your words, went and did all this. That’s an extreme divergence from the truth. When you try to fill in the placeholder of “mean kid” with some person from an alternate dimension that barely relates to Hyrule, I’m sorry, but that breaks canon.

    And before you go off on me for using canon solely to “object to everyone” here, let me be extremely clear (once again) about what I’m doing. I said in my original article that I’m using the strictest level of canon possible; by doing this, when we see a spade, we call it a spade because it cannot be anything else. When we see “mean kid,” the most obvious reference is who? Link? Or Phantasmal Entity #256? The answer, of course, is Link. That’s the level of canon I’m using, and deviations from that “isn’t canon.” The whole point is that you’re taking some artistic liberties, adding some assumptions to the game, and poofing it into a legitimate timeline. I don’t have a problem with that! ;) That’s the proof I’m going for! ;)

    I know that there’s no hard canonical proof to DISPROVE that your Phantasmal Entity #256 DIDN’T do it. I am infinitely aware of it. But there is ZERO canonical evidence to show that it happened EXACTLY that way… and there is canonical evidence to suggest that it was Link. Thus, Link is more supported by canon than your theory, which gives me the right to object.

    The Missing Link said:But there is ZERO canonical evidence to show that it happened EXACTLY that way… and there is canonical evidence to suggest that it was Link. Thus, Link is more supported by canon than your theory, which gives me the right to object.

    im glad that part was at the end of your post…im not so great at quoting long posts :) .

    im wondering about what you said;what exactly is the canonical evidence that suggests link is the mean kid>? surly the fact that link is a kid dosnt make him the “mean kid”.I would asume the evidence would be the part where the windmill guy tells adult link he was the one who played the song seven years ago,but everybody seems to disregard that bit of info so I would imagine theres something im missing :? .

    also,dont the people who look at every bit of cannon just look for what makes the most sence?

    Ninja Lord Kakashi said:

    im wondering about what you said;what exactly is the canonical evidence that suggests link is the mean kid? surly the fact that link is a kid dosnt make him the “mean kid”.I would asume the evidence would be the part where the windmill guy tells adult link he was the one who played the song seven years ago,but everybody seems to disregard that bit of info so I would imagine theres something im missing :? .

    A good question, and I don’t mind explaining it. The canon evidence that does exist that ties Link with the reference is that… well… Link actually did what the Guru-Guru Man was talking about. No matter how you play the game, Link is practically forced into the act of playing the song for the Guru-Guru Man (provided you actually want to finish the game… and you don’t cheat). The fact that Link played the song with an ocarina and caused the windmill to get really wonky fits the description down to the letter. We see no one else that ever plays the song for him. In fact, the very suggestion that someone did this seven years ago prompts Link to go do the deed! As such, since Link did indeed do something quite like what the Guru-Guru Man said, that’s your canon evidence.

    also,dont the people who look at every bit of cannon just look for what makes the most sence?

    That’s practically the point. A lot of time Occam’s Razor gets brought out as a way of paring down possible explanations which could have caused something to happen. Whichever explanation is least assumptive about the story tends to be the one that people say canon supports more (since it requires less reading into the game or less guesswork). This is why I’m using this here.

    that makes sence,I think ill just stick to my time line though (i.e the one that dosnt exist :P ).

    Why… couldn’t Zelda have sent Link back in time to a point before she gave him the Ocarina, so she still has it to give to him shortly prior to Majora?

    Agh, I’m a fan of GameTrailers.com’s timeline theory. It simplifies things by Link being absent from Ganondorf’s taking-over in both timelines, but for different reason (the important thing being that he’s gone, so it can still happen again). Only thing I’m still confused about with that one is how a new Link appeared in the timeline that took place after the adult portion of OoT. As far as we know, Link didn’t have an heir. I guess the only possibly explanation for that would be he got busy with Malon behind our backs or something.

    As far as I know, there are two parts in OoT where Link uses the Master Sword to mess with time. Every other instance of time travel in the games is pure alternate-1985, and is used with a magical instrument like the Harp of Ages, which has actual control over time, instead of just acting like a key.

    The Master Sword is ALWAYS a key – this is made explicit in Wind Waker, and is a main theme in the games in which it appears. It is never said (on its own) to be an actual tool that CONTROLS the flow of time, as the Ocarina is. It is merely a key to a door, however supernatural that door is. As for using “original time” in both of those, you seem to miss the obvious fact that Zelda adds “regain your lost time” with the Ocarina – a small detail, but important.

    Also, just to be similarly nitpicky – it does not say lay the Master Sword to rest TO close the Door to Time. Merely that he must do both. Another important distinction. Yes, The Master Sword is a ship to travel through time – but only because, at this point, it serves as a key to the two times. At other points in its history, it is a key to other things (Ganon’s power, the Door to the Temple of Time in *spoiler*, Agahnim’s door, etc.)

    I seem to remember that in the Gerudo Desert, if you visit as an adult before becoming a member and/or saving Nabooru, the Gerudo are all evil, and Nabooru is their leader. This would indicate that the Master Sword, which usually is only able to act as a key to travel between the two times AS IF THEY WERE UNCONNECTED, actually allows him to change time. However, I don’t remember if you actually see Nabooru as an adult, and she was brainwashed by Twinrova either way you go, so there’s no actual way to show that the Master Sword acts as anything other than a key between what as treated as two different realms (or predestined, its your call). To make this clear – they may be just as evil in the adult timeline, but let Link into the village later because he has an item that he brought in his magic, extradimensional bag of holding that he loves so much. Without that card, they would have treated him the same. They stay evil like this until Nabooru is freed, in the adult timeline, and so time manipulation does not actually occur here.

    As was shown in The Minish Cap, the princess’ power can monstrously amplify ANY magical tool, and the fact that she played the Ocarina implies that Link MUST be going back before the temple was opened – otherwise, he could have just pulled the sword out again and tried to live the next seven years helping out Hyrule against Ganondorf. The fact that Zelda is still at the window bears witness to this – he is either warning her, or merely telling her that their plan failed in the worst way – by allowing Ganon to corrupt the very Sacred Realm they had tried to keep him out of.

    As for Link being stuck in the Temple – there’s no reason that the door would lock both ways; why would the sages try to guard against the goddesses? And even if it did, Rauru could easily warp him out, as they are all Hylian and can (theoretically) telepathically communicate.

    As for the Zelda and Skullkid theories, these actually make a lot of sense for me.
    For Shiek: She did have to hide as a Shiekah immediately after she left the Castle, and before Link emptied the well. What better place to hide out (until she can masquerade as Ganondorf’s servant), then in an ancient Shiekah well? She empties the well, her and Impa go in to hide for a while, and then it refills due to NATURAL RAIN. Link does it again, GuruGuru wants to kill him, etc. As for needing a magical instrument – GuruGuru’s descendent uses an ordinary phonograph in OoA, and it has the same effect.

    And I think you could call a song strange if it was a variation of your own that CONTROLLED THE WEATHER. That would perk up my attention too: “It never did THAT before!”

    Finally, the intuitiveness aspect: it could also EASILY be assumed that Link thought maybe Zelda/Shiek had done it, or just that he wanted to go see who had done it. Time travel doesn’t necessarily imply responsibility for everything that happens in the past. He needed to get in the well (when it wasn’t blocked), the man told him that 7 years ago someone had done it with a song. If I could travel back 7 years, I would follow that lead as well. And even though the man taught him the song then, the well was blocked, so you can’t claim that he could have just done it as an adult.

    *edit*
    sorry, change that to “no matter how temporal that door is”, and “GuruGuru’s descendent in OoS”

    And yes, I am using a combination of Predestination and Total Control theory to explain the time problem. But at least there’s a different tool for each part.

    Benevolent Ganondorf said:

    Why… couldn’t Zelda have sent Link back in time to a point before she gave him the Ocarina, so she still has it to give to him shortly prior to Majora?

    The Door of Time was closed. He couldn’t get out.

    Only thing I’m still confused about with that one is how a new Link appeared in the timeline that took place after the adult portion of OoT. As far as we know, Link didn’t have an heir. I guess the only possibly explanation for that would be he got busy with Malon behind our backs or something.

    Either that or the Links aren’t related.

    KrytenKoro said:

    It is never said (on [the Master Sword’s] own) to be an actual tool that CONTROLS the flow of time, as the Ocarina is.

    I quote Sheik: “Sheik: Past, present, future… The Master Sword is a ship with which you can sail upstream and downstream through time’s river…”

    As for using “original time” in both of those, you seem to miss the obvious fact that Zelda adds “regain your lost time” with the Ocarina – a small detail, but important.

    I think that the difference is absolutely negligible. The original time Sheik tells him to go to his original time (via the Master Sword), he would have to come back; thus, Link wouldn’t have the chance to regain the seven years he had skipped. When Zelda did so, there was a sense of permanence about it, where Link would definitively regain the seven years he skipped… and why? Because Link was sealing the Master Sword again. ;)

    Also, just to be similarly nitpicky – it does not say lay the Master Sword to rest TO close the Door to Time. Merely that he must do both. Another important distinction.

    I never suggested that the Master Sword would seal the Door of Time. I am saying that the sealing of the Master Sword would close the warp between time–as Zelda tells us–a rule that even her with the Ocarina could not break.

    I seem to remember that in the Gerudo Desert, if you visit as an adult before becoming a member and/or saving Nabooru, the Gerudo are all evil, and Nabooru is their leader.

    Link actually doesn’t change the future when going back to the child half of the Spirit Temple… at least noticeably. The only thing that he could have changed is that Nabooru now… heh heh… “lives at the Spirit Temple,” which we knew from the Gerudos from Gerudo Valley before going back in time.

    [T]here’s no actual way to show that the Master Sword acts as anything other than a key between what as treated as two different realms (or predestined, its your call).

    Nevertheless, it still manipulates time whether you like it or not.

    To make this clear – they may be just as evil in the adult timeline, but let Link into the village later because he has an item that he brought in his magic, extradimensional bag of holding that he loves so much. Without that card, they would have treated him the same. They stay evil like this until Nabooru is freed, in the adult timeline, and so time manipulation does not actually occur here.

    *scratches head* WHAT? No no… The Master Sword’s time manipulation has nothing to do with the making the Gerudo people nice to Link. Link going back in history doesn’t CHANGE that.

    As was shown in The Minish Cap, the princess’ power can monstrously amplify ANY magical tool,

    WHAT? Did you play the same game I did? Here’s Elzo’s lines word for word:

    Elzo: “[…] The mage’s cap was my creation. But its limitless power has caused nothing but trouble for your kind. […] But it is too soon to give in to despair. The curse on me is broken, and Zelda still possesses some of the light force. Perhaps, together, we can do something to make things right.

    If one with a just heart wears this cap, things can be made right again. Princess Zelda! Let your wishes be made real!

    Look! The castle! All the people who had been turned to stone! They’re all back to normal! Hmm-hmm! The hat is falling apart. It’s overflowing with the power of life! The hat has the power to turn the thoughts of its wearer into reality. Vaati’s heart was filled with evil, and that was reflected in what he became. But it seems that Zelda’s pure heart, coupled with the hat’s power… …has created a miracle!

    There is NOTHING in there about the princess having the power to amplify magic whatsoever. If anything at all, Zelda’s light force would be the cause of that, and no other Zelda is known to have that (unless it’s the same as the Triforce, at which point Link has it too).

    As for Link being stuck in the Temple – there’s no reason that the door would lock both ways;

    But the door was already open…

    As for the Zelda and Skullkid theories, these actually make a lot of sense for me.

    They make sense, sure. There’s no canon evidence though. ;) It’s moot unless you can show it… or else you can assume that canon is not as important as I claim.

    KrytenKoro just reminded me of one interesting little piece of information that I had forgotten. The final scene of Ocarina of Time.

    In that cutscene, Link approaches Zelda in the Courtyard and she turns around and gasps, as if they are meeting for the very first time. You could, I suppose argue, that she gasps in surprise because she did not expect Link to be there, but the most likley explanation is that she has never seen him before, especially since Link approached her in exactly the same way he did at the begninning of the game, and when she turns around she gasps in exactly the same way as before. Since you argue that you are following the strictest form of canon, you say that the most likley implication is the truest, therefore meaning that the scene does indeed represent Zelda seeing Link for the very first time.

    Now, ontop of that, she’s not even meant to be at the castle at all since she fled from Ganondorf before Link pulled the Master Sword from the pedastal. If, as you say, Link was returned to the same point of time that he left, Princess Zelda would still be in hiding. This means that Link was returned to a point in time before all the motions of time travel were set in place, thereby allowing Princess Zelda to give the Ocarina of Time to Link when he sets out in his journey to Termina.

    And just to argue another one of your points.

    The Missing Link said:

    We do have to remember that Ocarina stood as a game on its own before Majora even came about. Without Majora even present, the skull kid isn’t an obvious choice for the origin of the song, despite the fact that he exists inside Ocarina of Time. Even with Majora’s Mask in tow, you’ve got to remember how Majora came about. There was tons of direct copying of game music, character sprites, and so forth. The Song of Storms in Majora could very well have been Nintendo stringing us along by them copying plot devices; there’s no overt connection between the two.

    If this is the case, then why are you using information from it to disprove the Future Predestination Theory (i.e. Zelda giving Link the Ocarina of Time). Couldn’t I then use information from the game to prove another, such as the split timeline theory? (i.e. the possiblity that the Skull Kid played the Song of Storms, which is a possiblitiy that still exists within canon). And what does it matter when Majora’s Mask was created? We’re trying to peice a timeline together from games that were created at entirley different times. And if the fact that it was produced in a rush invalidates the probability of my theory, why don’t we just call the entire series invalid and blame it on the way the games were produced? And I believe canon is what exists inside the games, not how they were produced.

    Darth Taya said:

    Couldn’t I then use information from the game to prove another, such as the split timeline theory? (i.e. the possiblity that the Skull Kid played the Song of Storms, which is a possiblitiy that still exists within canon).

    Provided there was evidence to support it, sure. I’m certain you’ll find there is none. ;)

    well,skull kids in hyrule at the beggining of MM…thats a start.he also has some connection to the composer brothers who inturn have some connection to the song of storms.furthermore all the chaos in terminia is happening the second you walk in the tree/portal thing,so its safe to say that skull kid didnt go to hyrule before he messed with the brothers.finally,its not unlike skull kid to do something like play a song just to make an old man angry :) .i cant prove a thing right now though since I cant play MM but im sure someone else could.

    Like I said before, thanks to the introduction of Majora, the Skull Kid has a reputation of being a “mean kid” - moreso than what Link has. He also fits into the situation nicely because of his connection with the composer brothers in Termina. I understand that Link was most likely the one being referred to by the Windmill man, and, as you argue, because of that my theory doesn’t count within “strict” canon (is there some sort of canon hand book that has all of these rules???), but that wasn’t the main point of my response TML. What of the final cut scene in Ocarina of Time? What do you have to say about that?

    Darth Taya said:

    Like I said before, thanks to the introduction of Majora, the Skull Kid has a reputation of being a “mean kid” - moreso than what Link has. He also fits into the situation nicely because of his connection with the composer brothers in Termina. I understand that Link was most likely the one being referred to by the Windmill man, and, as you argue, because of that my theory doesn’t count within “strict” canon (is there some sort of canon hand book that has all of these rules???), but that wasn’t the main point of my response TML. What of the final cut scene in Ocarina of Time? What do you have to say about that?

    I’ve never ruled out your “Majora fix” as solving the whole thing… but as I’ve said, your theory is mere speculation. There’s nothing that points to the fact that he did it. The Guru-Guru Man defines the perpetrator as a “‘mean kid,’” which is true, but he obviously seemed very angry when he described it. In truth, seven years later, he STILL is angry about it. So naturally, he would describe ANYONE who did it as a mean kid. Thus, he could have easily called Link a mean kid just as he could’ve the Skullkid.

    But since there is no evidence to suggest that the Skullkid did it but there is evidence to suggest that Link did it, Occam’s Razor supports that Link did it. ;)

    As far as the final cutscene, you might remember that Zelda in the Temple of Time described her last seven years to Link. She didn’t mention once anything about seeing Link after she passed him when fleeing from Ganondorf. As such, we can only assume–by Occam’s Razor–that she didn’t. And so the final cutscene could not have been the same timeline and the same future where Link defeated Ganondorf, thus promoting a timeline possibility that isn’t supported by the Song of Storms. ;)

    Therein lies the contradiction.

    long :O

    *my first time using tags…wish me luck*

    Sesshorochikuramaru said:

    long :O

    … but very awesome.

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