ZeldaBlog

The Imprisoning War Ambiguity

April 20th, 2006 at 10:55 pm by The Missing Link

The Timeline Mysteries — Part II

I’m sure several of you wanted to believe that I had forgotten about the timeline stuff by now, but I assure you… I very much haven’t. ;) For those of you who do have memories worse than mine (which is really hard to come by), last time we talked about The Four Swords Paradox. I mentioned that the problem in taking the Zelda games at its face value as canon–the stuff we use as so-called “undisputable” timeline fodder. Doing so would lead to paradoxical logic that will inevitably defeat any timeline. (You can thank Nintendo for that blunder. Let’s just hope they don’t get involved in a land war with Asia. Oh wait, too late, they already did.) The solution was that canon cannot be treated as absolute gospel; rather, canon can, and must, be twisted and distorted, rationalised and broken, added to and subtracted from in order to create a “perfect” timeline. (But of course, that is paradoxical itself since doing that makes the timeline inherently imperfect, but we’ll just label that as unimportant triviality, if you don’t mind! Otherwise, we’ll be here all day on the merry-go-round of circular logic, and none of you want that.)

Just remember the First Rule of Zelda Timelines: We do not talk about Zelda Club. Canon cannot and must not be canon.

So let’s shift gears away from Four Swords and get to something slightly more interesting, something a little more… mainstream in the continuity debates. It’s time to go in depth into my personal favourite among the games: A Link to the Past.

Very few people actually have a problem with Past. The game is by popular opinion the best of the 2D Zelda games (at least so says the little voices in my head), and it was the first Zelda game that had some quasi-plot mixed into the actual in-game experience. (Yes, Virginia, some games have no plot. Believe it or not.) The dungeons were rather challenging, filled with brutal puzzles. And Zelda finally became a true blue character in the game. (I mean, imagine that, a game where you can actually go and talk matters over with the girl the game is named after. What was Nintendo thinking when they came up with that idea!?) It was, in a way, the second breaking out of Zelda, a reinvention of the Legend of Zelda… and for wackos like me, it will be the best Zelda likely until the day we die. (Or at least until Twilight comes out finally in the year 2256.)

The funny part about Past is that its controversiality in the timeline arena doesn’t stem from the game itself… but from the game’s manual. (Non-timeline people, go ahead and shake your heads. You know you want to.)

Out of all the Zelda games’ manuals, Past has I believe the longest background story found in any of them… and it would definitely compete with the likes of many of the Final Fantasy manuals as well. There are five entire pages of mice-type text that explains in gory detail how Hyrule was created, the origins of the character Ganon, and how Agahnim came into the story. Personally, I think this is a small portion of what endeared me to Past at the time; they didn’t just gloss over the game as if it were inconsequential history; they tried to show you the world as much as possible. (I think that games need to return to this as well, but we’re talking timeline, so let me get back to the point.)

The divide in the timeline debates comes from an event in the backstory called the Imprisoning War–or the Seal War according to the Japanese flavour of the text. The Imprisoning War essentially came about with Ganondorf Dragmire, the leader of a band of thieves, obtaining the Triforce from the Golden Realm. The Wise Men caught word of this and immediately sought to advise the king. The king knew that Ganon would come to fight, and so he sent the Knights of Hyrule to greet Ganon’s army while the Seven Wise Men attempted to send Ganondorf back to the Golden Land, locking him within it forever. The Knights suffered incredible losses, their number dwindling to so few that you could probably count them on both your hands, but they were successful, and thus Ganon lost yet again. Poor thing.

Gee… kind of sounds pretty similar to another story. Let me lay this on you for size…

Using his evil magic, Ganondorf, leader of a band of thieves, attacks Hyrule Castle, killing guards and driving the princess away into exile. (There’s nothing either way that suggests whether the king is alive or dead at this point, so let’s assume, for sanity’s sake, that he is.) Though he doesn’t have the Triforce yet, he does manage to follow Link into the Sacred Realm and steal the Triforce… which he then uses to attack the Knights of Hyrule… only to be defeated in the end by the Seven Sages, who seal him into the Sacred Realm, which becomes the Evil Realm, a world of darkness.

Are there differences? Of course. But look how similar the Imprisoning War backstory is to Ocarina of Time itself. Several details were included almost identically in the general sense. Seven Wise Men and Seven Sages… an attack which wiped out many… Ganondorf weaseling his way to where the Triforce was held… all of it working together to show a big correlation between the two stories. But sceptics would rightly point out that there are name changes from Sage to Wise Men and from Golden Land to Sacred Realm… and that the massacre didn’t happen at the right time… and that the timeline would’ve been forgotten when Link goes back to make things right the last time. Yadda yadda yadda… blah blah blah… this can go on all day if we really want to, but you’ve gotten the idea by now, I presume. Thusly, most certainly it can’t be the same story, right?

As if the debate was bad enough, there’s also major differences between the North American and Japanese manuals, especially within the backstory sections. The Japanese actually use the word “Sage” to refer to the Seven, it implies that the Master Sword was not made in response to Ganon’s obtaining of the Triforce but rather well before, and it produces less conflicting text because it treats the background information extremely objectively… whereas our version tends to make inferences about the game within the manual history. The Japanese version seems to drive the Imprisoning War to be Ocarina because of the many similarities… while the American “translation” seems to suggest that it’s a completely separate event in history. (Yes, there are entire topics devoted to this. It’s about as bad as the geek convention that attended the midnight showings of the prequel Star Wars movies.) However at the same time, if you go over the two stories with a fine-toothed comb, forgetting completely about the Ocarina context and just analysing story against story, you can see that the American version of the manual is really just added and subtracted assumptions off the original source, partially done because of localisation, partially because of artistic license. Sound familiar? Yes, that’s the First Rule of Timelines! (Knew that would come back to haunt you, didn’t ya?) Most people will go around saying that the original Japanese version is the only legal canon there is, yet if you take into account the assumption set the American translator used, you’ll find that it too could be a very surprisingly accurate renindition of the backstory.

But enough of this. You’re getting bored, I can tell. And you’re begging me to answer the $64,000 question: Is it or is it not Ocarina? (No, the question is not “When will this article end?” Sheesh. ;) ) Let’s take a look at both sides, starting with the evidence for:

  1. A Dash of Parsley, A Lot of Sage — It’s rather hard to ignore the fact that the Japanese version of the text mentions the Sages in there, especially keeping the number of them at seven with one being the Princess herself. It just cries out that the developers considered this story when forming the Ocarina tale.
  2. Take that, Darwin! — The creation story is quite similar between the two games as well. In both versions, the deity of power creates the land, the deity of wisdom created laws, and the deity of courage created life. Seems like an open-and-shut case.
  3. Thieves Like Us — The backstory of Past tells us that Ganondorf, the leader of a band of thieves, finds the Triforce and then rains holy war upon the likes of Hyrule. And it is obvious that Ganondorf did something the night when he went after the Ocarina of Time. A guard died, and he obviously infiltrated the castle somehow… or else Zelda and Impa wouldn’t be fleeing for their lives.
  4. It’s the New New New Revised Version of the Bible — And if that don’t beat all, since Ocarina came out later, it’s bound to be the more accurate renindition of the story anyways. So nyeh, nyeh. You lose, and I win.

Yet the argument is definitely weak because… well, let’s face it, there are definite incongruities in the story as well. For starters…

  1. A Little Racial Segregation, Much? — The maidens are, according to the Japanese manual, descendants of the Seven Sages… but they’re all Hylian. No Zora, no Goron, no Gerudo (well, that’s up for grabs), and no Kokiri child (again… maybe)… all Hylian. It’s times like this when being descendants of the Seven Wise Men look more promising than that of the Seven Sages.
  2. The Great Sex Change — No one will question that Din, Nayru, and Farore were all goddesses–female deities. Yet Past casts them as the “God of Power,” the “God of Wisdom,” and the “God of Courage.” Wait, are we talking about the same people here? This suggests that the legend has changed over time… and that means that a lot of time would’ve passed between Ocarina and Past, thus placing the Imprisoning War anywhere in the grand history of the series.
  3. Clash of the TitansPast clearly states that there was an epic battle between Ganondorf and the King’s forces, and the King specifically drew upon the Seven Wise Men (or Sages) and the Knights of Hyrule. Yet after Ganondorf invaded Hyrule Castle that one fateful night, people in Hyrule were oblivious to the fact. The people in Hyrule Castle Town went about life as normal, hardly anyone the wiser of the fact that there’d been a midnight raid. This is hardly the epic clash that Past suggests, especially since Ganondorf is only defeated by being sealed in the Sacred Realm after Link’s return.
  4. The Sword that Didn’t Exist Yet — The American version of Past’s backstory suggests that the Master Sword was made after Ganondorf got into the Sacred Realm, and the Japanese text is sadly rather ambiguous as to the specific timing, not really pinning the blade’s creation before or after this event.

Both arguments are hardly proof in the pudding. Timeliners can go back and forth forever, citing reasons for and against to their hearts’ content. Yet what we have here is a case where there can be no proof of one side over the other. Those arguing for allowing Ocarina and the Imprisoning War to be the same have to accept that the stories aren’t identical; those arguing against have to admit that there are some pretty crazy similarities, and to chalk them all up as coincidence puts the odds against them. Even worse, taking from the lesson of the Four Swords Paradox in Part I, all of the text in both Ocarina and the Past manual is up for speculation anyways. Story can be added, removed, or altered to allow the two sources to align themselves perfectly with one another… or to mangle them so far apart that they aren’t the same story no matter how you look at it.

In short, you can’t prove what happened. The two sides of the issue are at a perfect stalemate. And so the answer is that there is no answer. Or rather there are two very possible answers… thus suggesting (dare I say it?) that we cannot at this time know exactly how the history of Hyrule took place. (”And thus there’s no timeline, right!?” Exactly! There are multiple timelines. Mwahaha.)

Yet… let’s take this one step further. After all, when we come across a statement this big, we can’t exactly just throw the consequences to the winds.

  • Link’s Awakening has always been proposed to come around the time of Link to the Past, but why? Well, many believe because they came out near the same time… and their stories do seem to fit together… that they should belong together in the storyline. But where’s the cream filling proof? Link one day decides to go sailing for another land and shipwrecks into an island that doesn’t exist (Talk about needing to get his driver’s license revoked for that!), but that’s it. Past suggests nothing of his future endevours, and Awakening’s manual only says that Ganon was defeated prior to this game, but that could mean any number of Zelda games, really. Ambiguous.
  • How about the Oracles and Awakening? Sure, Link defeated Ganon after the Oracles and then was on a ship at the end, but where did he sail to? Koholint? No proof exists. Ambiguous.
  • For that matter… why don’t we put Link’s Awakening right after Wind Waker? You defeated Ganon, the world is full of water as is… and you met Zelda in the previous game to boot. Seems like it meets all of the prerequisites to me… yet even that has no proof. Ambiguous.

Really, when you think about, linking together all twelve games (nine of you discount the Four Swords bits) is done in a rather arbitrary fashion as is. There’s no direct evidence that any of the games really fit together other than at best vague clues. Sure, one might suggest that they’re going for the most logical or the most sensible structure when they make their timeline decisions, but they only kid ourselves when they say that because they then proceed to ignore all the evidence that runs counter to their objective. Moreover, those timeliners are no different than us after all; none of us here have more detailed knowledge than any other person because, guess what, all the text is freely available to everyone. There aren’t any secrets that Nintendo has shared to one individual that hasn’t been shared to everyone else as well. (Of course, that implies that Nintendo actually shares secrets… ha!)

In the end, no matter where you look, there’s ambiguity everywhere. Not only can a timeline not exist because of paradox, but, even without that, there’s no way to show that any given timeline is “the right one”.

So much for timeliners kicking ass and taking names. (Unless Reggie is a timeliner too. But honestly, he’s pretty special, and even I cannot hope to compete with Mr. Fils-Aime. ;) )

To Be Continued…

Filed under Timeline, Editorials, Ocarina of Time, A Link to the Past

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31 Messages from the Gossip Stones about “The Imprisoning War Ambiguity”

    Comments

    Very good article, TML, and you actually touched base on a lot of things that were bugging me about the Zelda “timeline” and whole series backstory. You have WAY too much free time on your hands, don’t you?

    See, I’m not one of those people who flees at the site of Timeline articles; I’m just the opposite that attracts to them. Thus I’ve actually waited for Pt. 2 of the Timeline Mysteries for days! So I hope that brought you some relief, TML ;-) .

    I absolutely loved ALttP, but it always bothered me because of this, because I could never figure out what that *Naving* Imprisoning War precisely was. It angered me more after OoT came out, because it was supposed to be a re-enactment of it, though I found it hard to believe.

    Firstly, I have some questions:
    1) Did the King know precisely who the seven sages were?
    A silly assumption, but if he drew upon the seven sages to seal Ganon away, I would think it would be logical to think that he did indeed know who they were. Of course, he could have just known about them, without knowing who they were, but still…
    2) Did Link “fight in the Imprisoning War”?
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do not recall Link, or a hero for that matter, being mentioned in the ALttP Instruction booklet. I know it said that the seven sages searched for a valiant soul to wield it, never said they actually did.
    3) Was it truly the Gerudos that helped Ganondorf invade the Sacred Realm?
    Granted, I know it said his ‘gang of thieves’ but that doesn’t necessarily mean the Gerudo. As far as I’m concerned, any person of any race is capable of betrayal, becoming a thief, and joining the side of Ganondorf. There was a robber in the Hyrule Castletown running around for Din’s sake (in MM, his name was Sakon, but I don’t know his name in OoT)! And besides, I’d like to think that Ganondorf, saying that the Gerudo did help him, would have enough decency to fix their bridge…then again, the Gerudo kind of wanted to be isolationists to keep out other men…maybe. Argh, I’m confusing myself!

    Now, I’ve always thought that OoT was not the Imprisoning War in ALttP. I am also in fact, one of those people who do not believe in the two-timeline theory (the Miyamoto order I believe it is also called) where WW takes place after OoT saying Link doesn’t put the sword back, and the other side where he does…or something like that (I’m really beginning to confuse myself now).

    Why:
    1) It never stated that a hero (a la Link) fought in the Imprisoning War, or aided for that matter, in sealing away Ganondorf.
    Yes, I know this was a question above, but I’m under the impression that the answer is no. Saying that is the case, this could have been a completely different fight.
    2) It clearly shows at the end of OoT that Link puts the Master Sword back.
    While I’m not entirely convinced going back in time undid the sealing of Ganondorf, either way you look at it, the entire War with Ganondorf and his army is avoided, which means no Imprisoning War for OoT (personally, I theorize that Ganondorf tried to break free and nearly did, but the sages resealed him, and Link wasn’t there for it; of course I can’t prove this). Then again, the very beginning of OoT (the title screen) shows him on Epona, running around the field, and the Castle seems to be restored…great…
    And 3) Geography!
    Compare the map of ALttP and OoT, and you’ll notice that many of these locations (Death Mountain, Lost Woods, etc.) are not in the same area. In ALttP, the Castle is in the center of the field, whereas in OoT, it’s probably the Northern point. The Lost Woods are to the west, and connected to the top of Kakariko Village, but in OoT, it’s Southeast-ish, moreso closer to Zora’s River. To me, doesn’t seem like the same Hyrule at all (and this is where TWW comes in, and potentially PH saying that it’s after WW).

    Theories are full of so many holes that you can never cover up. I don’t think i’ll ever come to a solution that suite perfectly. But I have to admit, it’s fun to try!

    *needs to stop making long posts*

    1) Did the King know precisely who the seven sages were?

    Tough sell, but it isn’t required, no. It depends upon how you interpret “The lord of Hyrule sent for the Seven Wise Men . . . and ordered them to seal the entrance to the Golden Land” (LttP Manual, 5); of course it’s different in Japanese, heh.

    2. Did Link “fight in the Imprisoning War”?
    He isn’t directly mentioned, no.

    3) Was it truly the Gerudos that helped Ganondorf invade the Sacred Realm?
    No evidence either way. All we know is that thieves (magical in the US version, not the case in the Japanese) helped him do it.

    The Great Sex Change — No one will question that Din, Nayru, and Farore were all goddesses–female deities. Yet Past casts them as the “God of Power,” the “God of Wisdom,” and the “God of Courage.”

    I don’t believe Japanese has a specific gender identifier for God / Goddess, which explains that problem. The translators probably had no idea whether the gods were male or female in the Japanese manual. (I could be wrong though).

    2) It clearly shows at the end of OoT that Link puts the Master Sword back.

    It was always my opinion of this timeline that the change wasn’t Link not putting the sword back - He puts it back, that can’t be disputed, because its in the game. My opinion was always that the two timelines were the one that we saved, continued on, and when Ganon(dorf) broke free, he destroyed them all, because Link had gone back in time. The second timeline was the one in which Link went back in time, such that Ganondorf didn’t take over in the first place (or, when he broke free, he was stopped again).

    Regardless of this, I have no opinion on the timeline.

    I myself looked up the manual for LttP for the first time not so long ago, and it made me think that perhaps it predates OoT after all. Of course, some of the reasons I thought that were ones you just mentioned might have been translation errors. e.e In the end, I think the sad truth is probably that the developers of OoT were indeed trying to put the Imprisoning War into a game, but they decided to fudge around with some of the previously established facts. :P

    Still, that doesn’t stop fans like me from speculating on ways in which canon might be made more self-consistent. ;) My favorite theory at this point is that the Imprisoning War and LttP both happened long before OoT, and that the two games both involve the same Ganon (whom I see as an evil spirit with no body of his own), but not the same Ganondorf. The primary advantage of this theory, as I see it, is that it explains the sticky question of how Ganon had the whole Triforce in LttP but not in OoT and beyond. The first Ganondorf managed to keep the entire Triforce, but lost it all when Link destroyed him, as is seen at the end of LttP. Then centuries later, another thief named Ganondorf is inhabited by Ganon and goes after the Triforce, but only gets the Triforce of Power, as seen in OoT.

    Time and time again I have tried to Link (geddit… ok bad pun) all the games together and time and again I have received a migraine for my troubles until one day I decided oh to *Navi* with it lets just play the damn games.

    You mentioned most of the points that I myself have thought about a great deal when devising my timeline.

    You left out one major inconstancy however that has always lead me to believe that OoT predates the Imprisioning War.

    Ganondrof never obtains the entire Triforce in OoT, only Power. In LttP he has the entire Triforce. I have yet to see a Timeline theorie that ex[plains this what-so-ever.

    Also, when Link goes back in time, how is Ganondrof sealed. If you say that it was because Link came back to a point after Ganondrof entered the Sacred Realm, then it eleminates the Sages involvment all together. If you say he was sealed in the past and future when the Sages sealed him, way was he sealed in the past, and why at one specific point?

    I hold that when Link went back, it was to the moment before he first pulled the sword out, preventing Ganondrof from getting the Triforce at all. Link left for Termania, and then Ganondrof attacked again, causing the Imprisioning War.
    (I also believe that WW happens on the future arc, after Link returns to the past. Perhapce TP will clear this part up at least.)

    • 8. TSA says:

    Bill Trinnen said two years ago that A Link to the Past was re-localized in the CAPCOMP version to better connect with the events of Ocarina of Time. The mandate came from NCL.

    Not sure how you want to interpret that, but not by any means proof.

    it seems to make more sence that lttp refers to oot since theres to many similarities between the two storys to call it coincidence.also the caslte in lttp almost looks the same as the one in fsa (in my opinion :P ) which would lead me to believe the two games are close together on the “time line” (if one exists :p ).also you actually find the knights of hyrule in fsa,there dead knights of hyrule but that could still mean something (tell me if you know what cause I sure dont :D ).

    Maybe they are the same game. It seems to me that a lot of my Zelda-fanatic friends’s favorite 2D Zelda game is ALttP and favorite 3D Zelda game is OoT; they’re our favorites because the storylines are so similar (or even identical).

    And my thoughts on this is OoT has to come first because Link puts the Master Sword back. If ALttP came first, there would be no sword. No sword, no OoT. But, if they are the same game, then I’m completely wrong.

    -/\|/\-Added from before-/\|/\-

    Thoughts? Opinions? Questions? Answers? Thoughs about opinions? Opinions about thoughts? Questions about answers? Answers to questions? Thoughts about thoughts? Opinions about opinions? Questions about questions? Answers about answers?

    God*Navi*it, Josephina, STOP BEING A PAIN IN THE *NAVI*!

    *-/\|/\-Added to previous post-/\|/\-*

    Thoughts? Opinions? Questions? Answers? Thoughs about opinions? Opinions about thoughts? Questions about answers? Answers to questions? Thoughts about thoughts? Opinions about opinions? Questions about questions? Answers about answers?

    God*Navi*it, Josephina, STOP BEING A PAIN IN THE *NAVI*!

    I did that twice, didn’t I?

    Good (devilish laugh). Goooood. You did a great job of covering all the points. I especially liked the way you compared the Imprisoning War and the Occarina of Time. I always just assumed that the inconsistencies in the stories were due to forgetfulness amonst the Hylian people. You know, history is always being rewritten and forgotten and I just assumed that the same thing happened in this case.

    TSA said:

    Bill Trinnen said two years ago that A Link to the Past was re-localized in the CAPCOMP version to better connect with the events of Ocarina of Time. The mandate came from NCL.

    Not sure how you want to interpret that, but not by any means proof.

    Of course, doing that just brings the ill-fated Four Swords story straight into Past… and we already know what a mess that is… ;)

    I have a timeline theory, but I don’t share it. I want to avoid the headaches caused by reading others’ thories in debates.

    • 17. Psy says:

    The Imprisoning War, as we know it, has completely been abolished. The updated story has absolutely no mention of Ganon. It basically just retells the same in-game story as when you start a new game (or just wait at the title screen), and makes a vague attempt at correcting the word “Gods” by calling them “Dieties”.

    Try all you want, but until someone comes up with a theory in which OoT and the Imprisoning War can logically co-exist, I’m standing by the argument that the Imprisoning War of SNES ALttP is no longer canon.

    Robert-UK said:

    Time and time again I have tried to Link (geddit… ok bad pun) all the games together and time and again I have received a migraine for my troubles until one day I decided oh to *Navi* with it lets just play the damn games.

    I know what you mean. I actually formulated a theory when I was really boored at school in which every Zelda game takes place in 24 hours, but I wont go into it…

    HMMMmmm…I think I got it (if I don’t ,let Mini Wallet Monsters rain upon me) What I’m seeing here is that when OoT Link places the sword back into its pedestal, the Triforce was never exposed (like someone before me said so) so Link was considered a hero by Zelda, she announces it, and thus Link is called Hero of Time (yipee *whistles* yahooo) and later, when Link slips into Termina, Ganon springs into action since Link has gone and got stuck in a three-a-day time loop in Termina, leaving Hyrule only to castle knights and the future sages.The gerudo haven’t planned a revolt yet, so they still work on Ganondork-er-dorf’s side, along with moblins, stalfos, gibdos, the works-and captures Hyrule, then the Royal Family hires some madmen to break the Sword of Evil’s Bane out of the pedestal, and the Sages use it to seal Ganondorf, whislt many knights fought bravely and lost to the undead, however, the Sages were victorious, since they had magic on there side, because they had Houdini with them because Hyrule’s Golden Goddesses (the said creators of the Triforce) never exsisted (who did create the Triforce, or more likely, the Tetraforce, is a different story) so only magic helped them, but as a consequence,
    *in a tuxedo and next to a broken TV screen*
    The magic that was used up, like exhaust, brought intense rains, and flooding, and sunk most of Hyrule under water*in normal all-green garb* and since many people saw what was going on, thinking it it was just a dream, knocked themselves out with their mallets, but they gave themselves amnesia, and when waking up, fled to the top of the mountains, most of the royal family didn’t make it though, and only OoT Zelda and a bunch of random Castle workers got out, everyone in Hyrule forgot it, thus it became The Great Sea.One generation later, the remaining Hylians have changed, only the old know little of the past, and a new generation had come (thanks to books conveniently floating around)everything in TWW was starting to happen, now later I’ll discuss where I think where the FS trilogy best fit in the timeline, but only on the topic about the theory.That would me the first of TML’s Timeline Theories.And thats what I’m thingking, it seems logical to me.

    Hmm… The Extended Link’s Awakening Theory? All of the different games could be dreams- many of the characters reoccur throughout the series (Tingle, Zelda, Postman, etc.), many of the lands, creatures, and themes are similiar, with only slight differences (cuccos, pigs), and even the basic storylines are similiar (peace - Ganon/other - Link - no Ganon). In addition, you avoid the problem of contradictions all together, since all of the games are replayings of the same story inside Link’s head!

    • 21. TSA says:

    I didn’t get to ask about FS. I asked about the localization. Bill said they have a strict guideline to adhere to now, and he insists there is a timeline…

    But, so far…I’ve not seen this timeline beyond my theories and millions of others.

    The Great Sex Change — No one will question that Din, Nayru, and Farore were all goddesses–female deities. Yet Past casts them as the “God of Power,” the “God of Wisdom,” and the “God of Courage.” Wait, are we talking about the same people here? This suggests that the legend has changed over time… and that means that a lot of time would’ve passed between Ocarina and Past, thus placing the Imprisoning War anywhere in the grand history of the series.

    I already suffered a bit of confusion over this. The term “Gods” (yes, plural) is used interchangeably with Goddesses throughout OoT. I wish I could quote an example, but I can’t. And in tWW, it’s more often “Gods” than “Goddesses”, which I believe has to do with the re-telling and re-writing of history.

    Although someone did bring up the excellent point of whether the Japenese have a word that differentiates “God” from “Goddess”? Honestly, if they didn’t, and I had to translate the manual, I would assume “God” over “Goddess” any day. The best choice, however, (as someone also said) is gender-neutral “deity”. Oh, well. .__.;;

    Erm Hyrulian Hero… how long exactly did it take you to think all that up, lol.

    Took me two hours…just kidding, still, I put some good thought, although I’ve been trying to stay in reality all day so I don’t end up as real bad Zelda humor (How do you know when you play too much Zelda?) .I still think that the Improsioning war was when Link was in Termina, since

    When the people of Hyrule needed their Hero the most, he never showed, thus the King sought out the gods, and the gods selected people to go up the mountains, and then, the gods made it rain a torrential storm upon Hyrule, forcing it to become “unda da sea” and thus, the Legend of the Hero was lost to the Winds of Time

    or something in relation.Because Ganondorf was around and not Link, the sages sealed Ganondorf again, but the flood came and the magic repelled it, but froze time, and the people really took their own memories by using the barrels, boxes, and pots they had conveniently around (with their lifesavings that Link missed) and thought that it was centuries, and when a generation had passed, TWW was happening, so before the Hyrulian Flood, there had to be a war in order to keep Ganondorf at bay, its logical.Otherwise, it’d be like Hitler comind around and gets to kill people until they were all dead, but they didn’t, so I figure that the Imprisoning War was where Rauru, Saria, Darunia, Ruto, Impa, Nabooru, and Zelda sealed Ganondorf on there own, but because they managed to seal his powers, they possibly moved the sword where the thieves (theoretically the Gerudo) couldn’t get it, within the castle walls, and while the crowd went into pot smashing (ouch) they sealed the Land of Hyrule in a time bubble (bubble first, then the time freezing) to protect it, then went mad too.Then, a few decades have passed, the real Link had died, and reincarnating as his own grandson (wonder why you never see Granpa in TWW?) and is named Link for his similarities to his grandfather, and thus becoming the Hero of Winds.I think people should think on this and give me some feedback (no bad feedback please)And the moral of this post is…Never use “pot” it’ll damage you.

    Hero of Winds hahaha sorry that title always makes me laugh. there has to be a Metafiction based around fart joker for that one, lol.

    Akira said:

    Although someone did bring up the excellent point of whether the Japenese have a word that differentiates “God” from “Goddess”? Honestly, if they didn’t, and I had to translate the manual, I would assume “God” over “Goddess” any day. The best choice, however, (as someone also said) is gender-neutral “deity”. Oh, well. .__.;;

    The specific word for ‘goddess’ is megami, but I don’t know where it and the generic ‘kami’ do and don’t appear in LttP and OoT and their respective manuals, except that LttP was originally ‘Kamigami [plural of ‘kami’] no Triforce’, and a quick check shows no instances of 女神 (’megami’) in http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/z3translation/z3_manual_story.html. (Disclaimer: I don’t actually know much Japanese, so the appropriate health warning applies.)

    I hope this comes out right; the live preview is doing strange things to it.

    Lunar said:

    Ganondrof never obtains the entire Triforce in OoT, only Power. In LttP he has the entire Triforce. I have yet to see a Timeline theorie that ex[plains this what-so-ever.

    I
    have a theory about this:
    You might have noticed that:
    -When Link returns, the Door of Time is open
    -Young Link has the ToC
    -Zelda does not have the ToW
    -The Triforce parts tend to combine into one, as seen in OoT and TWW.
    -The Triforce abandons the holder if he leaves Hyrule.

    Well, my theory is that, after (future) Zelda sends Link to the past, the timeline is divided in two, and so is the Triforce. In the future, Zelda keeps Link’s ToC and divide it in 8 parts. But in the past, Child Link has it. The goddesses made the Sages’ Seal to trascend time, so Ganondorf is sealed also in the child timeline. But there’s something different: child Zelda doesn’t have the ToW, so one can assume that it’s in Ganon’s hands, since the Triforce tends to combine. When Link leaves Hyrule, his ToC aandons him and combines with the other two. This way we have two timelines: one with a sealed Ganon with the whole Triforce, and another timeline with the ToW on Princess hands’, a ToP on Ganon’s hands and a hidden ToC.

    A little bit confusing, isn’t it?

    Sounds like an interesting idea but I dont think Nintendo will go for such a convuluted storyline, lol.

    Arturo said:

    I have a theory about this:
    You might have noticed that:
    -When Link returns, the Door of Time is open
    -Young Link has the ToC
    -Zelda does not have the ToW
    -The Triforce parts tend to combine into one, as seen in OoT and TWW.
    -The Triforce abandons the holder if he leaves Hyrule.

    Well, my theory is that, after (future) Zelda sends Link to the past, the timeline is divided in two, and so is the Triforce. In the future, Zelda keeps Link’s ToC and divide it in 8 parts. But in the past, Child Link has it. The goddesses made the Sages’ Seal to trascend time, so Ganondorf is sealed also in the child timeline. But there’s something different: child Zelda doesn’t have the ToW, so one can assume that it’s in Ganon’s hands, since the Triforce tends to combine. When Link leaves Hyrule, his ToC aandons him and combines with the other two. This way we have two timelines: one with a sealed Ganon with the whole Triforce, and another timeline with the ToW on Princess hands’, a ToP on Ganon’s hands and a hidden ToC.

    A little bit confusing, isn’t it?

    If there’s two different Timelines, there would be more holes to fill in, and as more games comes out, the timeline might get worse, rather than fill up certain holes, plus there is no current proof that there are two timelines, since Ganon comes back via sacrifice, or rebirth in a new vessel (reference in FSA).Just saying, you might be right, i might be right, who knows until the next two games come out.

    I haven’t played FSA (yet) but I can justify a split timeline. If you pay attention to the OoT, you will notice that if there wasn’t a split timeline, the whole game wouldn’t have any sense at all (instead of destroying Ganondorf, Link could go to the past and close the Door of Time, so that Ganondorf would never lay his hands on the Triforce). When you see the ending , Zelda says:
    You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time…
    However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed…

    This means there will be no communication between the adult ending and the child ending.. I can write much mor deffending the split ending, but I will just use this quote:

    Q: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline?

    Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.
    Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?
    Aonuma: From the end.
    Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a…
    Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.
    Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.

    By now, the Adult timeline hast OoT (TP? I think it has been said it would take place between OoT and TWW) and TWW. The Child timeline would contain the rest of the games.